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Parent renounce Singapore citizenship to get son away from NS?

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Mad Scientist
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Re: Parent renounce Singapore citizenship to get son away from NS?

Post by Mad Scientist » Sun, 30 Oct 2022 6:26 am

Koreba wrote:
Sat, 29 Oct 2022 3:44 pm
Dear MS. Thanks for getting back.

Moved from SG to Switzerland in 2019. In Switzerland, my wife can apply for citizenship after 10 years and the application process takes about 2 years. So the earliest she could have CH citizenship (and give up SG citizenship is late 2031). Since 2019 she has right to stay and work in CH. Permanent CH residence could be achieved in 2024 (or latest 2029).

Ok, pursue this PR and CH citizenship as early as you are permitted within the law

My son was born in SG in 2014 (i.e. SG citizen by birth), so he is 8 now. No letter allowing him to renounce at age 21 as we haven't requested so far. Is that something we could get already?
He also already has another citizenship by birth.

I would encourage you to get him EU PP since he is your descent by birth.
Travel with EU PP for him . Always have a back up plan
Your son might have a change of heart as he gets older.
If he decides to do the NS, he has to renounce SG/CH citizenship. I do not know Swiss law except for the Rolexes and Chocolates, unless he can regain his CH citizenship after renouncing it like AUS, NZ,JPN, PHP etc then there is no point serving NS really other than just abiding SG Law, this is my own POV unless he wants to live in SG. In your case, your family is no longer residing in SG and there is no intention of coming back here apart from your wife. But you will open another can of worms.
This my friend is call entrapment. Clever eh ?
Email to ICA stating the fact that your intention about your son renunciation . They will reply the same that blah blah... at 13 years old then only at 21 he is allowed to renounce if you decide to go down this route


As for the past 12 years:
2012 married
til 2014 wife and I lived overseas (outside SG)
2014-2019 lived in SG (for my work)
2019 left SG
SInce: We (the whole family) did a 2.5 week trip to SG this year (2022), my wife has visited by herself for another 10 days this year (2022) and we plan to visit 2-3 weeks per year to see relatives. If that lowers any chances of deferment then we will change that.

This guideline is a bit sketchy. From memory as long as she does not stay more than a month, she is fine. Let her visit her family. Happy wife happy life !!
I think as long she is incline to pursue her renunciation , your son application should be fine


Neither wife nor son own HDB/other property, no loans, have smallish CPF account, no business connections, nothing. Just a small bank account. And CPF which can't be closed til giving up citizenship. Wife has her whole family in SG (parents, siblings etc.). She never worked in SG though (only overseas). We got married overseas.

My concern is if she is a President scholar or under some sort of MOE bond or whatever, then all bets off the table.

Trying to be as clear as possible. No 2nd thoughts, not trying to trick anyone. We will not be back to Singapore and don't want anything from them. Til then will try to follow everything by the book, i.e. no socio-economic benefits whatsoever, get exit permit for 1 year 364 days etc. Only road-block at the moment is the above, that my wife can't give up SG citizenship til quite late in the process.


Keep the timeline to the T. No jumping queue , no cherry picking.
I can see you are dead set on this route and doing it the right way. Good on you.
Just be prepared for road blocks at 16 1/2, god forbids. Give me a yell and we see how to help. Not sure if I am still alive or not but who knows
If things turn to custard, custody rights or Deed Poll and EU PP comes to play. You have to figure these yourself sorry.....No speak England


Thank you!
The positive thinker sees the invisible, feels the intangible, and achieves the impossible.Yahoo !!!

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PNGMK
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Re: Parent renounce Singapore citizenship to get son away from NS?

Post by PNGMK » Sun, 30 Oct 2022 9:06 am

I was waiting for MS to pipe in but we had the same thoughts. Divorce and then have the CH court award sole custody and control to the CH parent. Change name after divorce.

This is called decoupling in Singapore and is widely practiced now among the rich for tax and property reasons.

If you think it's wrong then I assure you that conscription is far worse for some.
I not lawyer/teacher/CPA.
You've been arrested? Law Society of Singapore can provide referrals.
You want an International School job? School website or http://www.ISS.edu
Your rugrat needs a School? Avoid for profit schools
You need Tax advice? Ask a CPA
You ran away without doing NS? Shame on you!

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Re: Parent renounce Singapore citizenship to get son away from NS?

Post by Koreba » Wed, 02 Nov 2022 6:09 pm

Thanks gents. Divorce not an option, otherwise wife can't stay in Switzerland.
To summarize and to do list

Father: German citizen, worked in SG for 5 yrs on Employment pass, have left permanently to CH, no taxes outstanding, no property etc

Son: Never SG passport/SG local school/SG anything. Holds mandatory CPF account. Used GER passport to travel/emigrate
Son's age Son (SG / German dual citizen by birth)
0.0 Born in SG to SG mother, GER father
4.8 Left SG for Switzerland (CH); notified ICA of address change
4.8 Got temporary CH residence permit
8.0 Today, email ICA about intention renounce citizenship, get their answer that not possible til 21
9.8 Get permanent Swiss (CH) residence permit
11.0 Notify ICA and CMPB of intention to defer and renounce (earlier due to slow processes due to Covid)
13.0 Apply for deferment pending renunciation at age 21; SG mother sends documentation that she has CH permanent residence and that earliest date for her CH citizenship is when son is nearly 15; son sends SG birth cert, German passport copy and German birth cert, Letter from Swiss school confirming attendance, proof of departure from SG
13.0 Apply Exit Permit 1 yr 364 days (online, no bond), Reason: emigration. Not needed if deferment approved. What if approval process takes longer? Assume apply for exit permit (reason: emigration) for 1 yr 364 days
14.995 Re-Apply Exit Permit 1 yr 364 days (in Singapore in person? Online? No bond?) Reason: emigration
16.5 Register, no need for medical checkup if deferment is approved
21.0 Renounce SG citizenship, i.e. no chance to ever get employment pass, student pass etc. Just tourist visits

Wife: No HDB, loans, grants, benefits, MOE stuff. Short visits to family (less 1 month per year). Holds mandatory CPF account
Son's age Wife (SG citizen)
4.8 Left SG for Switzerland (CH); notified ICA of address change
4.8 Got temporary CH residence permit
9.8 Get permanent CH residence permit
14.8 Apply CH citizenship (earliest possible date), takes up to 2 yrs to get the citzenship
16.8 Get CH citizenship latest (2 yrs process) and then proceed to renounce SG citizenship

As an aside: Son could apply CH citizenship age 11.5, and possibly get CH citizenship by age 13.5. But then he would have to do Swiss NS
Also know of Singaporeans in CH- their kids did Swiss NS and SG still wants them to do SG NS as well...
MS, if you're still alive by then (as you wrote it), and I hope you have a very long and healthy life, how would I be able to contact you. Should I PM you my email address?

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PNGMK
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Re: Parent renounce Singapore citizenship to get son away from NS?

Post by PNGMK » Wed, 02 Nov 2022 7:00 pm

I would have your son do Swiss NS to get earlier CH citizenship. I suggest he takes up a different name prior to doing so. Worse case is just avoid Singapore after then. Best case is he escapes Singapore legally and ok. Either way try to avoid biometrics.
I not lawyer/teacher/CPA.
You've been arrested? Law Society of Singapore can provide referrals.
You want an International School job? School website or http://www.ISS.edu
Your rugrat needs a School? Avoid for profit schools
You need Tax advice? Ask a CPA
You ran away without doing NS? Shame on you!

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Re: Parent renounce Singapore citizenship to get son away from NS?

Post by Mad Scientist » Fri, 04 Nov 2022 8:07 am

delete
Last edited by Mad Scientist on Sat, 05 Nov 2022 6:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Parent renounce Singapore citizenship to get son away from NS?

Post by Mad Scientist » Fri, 04 Nov 2022 5:21 pm

Mad Scientist wrote:
Fri, 04 Nov 2022 8:07 am
Koreba wrote:
Wed, 02 Nov 2022 6:09 pm
Thanks gents. Divorce not an option, otherwise wife can't stay in Switzerland.
To summarize and to do list

Father: German citizen, worked in SG for 5 yrs on Employment pass, have left permanently to CH, no taxes outstanding, no property etc

Son: Never SG passport/SG local school/SG anything. Holds mandatory CPF account. Used GER passport to travel/emigrate
Son's age Son (SG / German dual citizen by birth)
0.0 Born in SG to SG mother, GER father
4.8 Left SG for Switzerland (CH); notified ICA of address change
4.8 Got temporary CH residence permit
8.0 Today, email ICA about intention renounce citizenship, get their answer that not possible til 21
This is a standard SOP reply from ICA but your intention is recorded
9.8 Get permanent Swiss (CH) residence permit
Your son already a DE Citizen so this CH residence permit is a bonus
11.0 Notify ICA and CMPB of intention to defer and renounce (earlier due to slow processes due to Covid)
13.0 Apply for deferment pending renunciation at age 21; SG mother sends documentation that she has CH permanent residence and that earliest date for her CH citizenship is when son is nearly 15; son sends SG birth cert, German passport copy and German birth cert, Letter from Swiss school confirming attendance, proof of departure from SG
Good
13.0 Apply Exit Permit 1 yr 364 days (online, no bond), Reason: emigration. Not needed if deferment approved. What if approval process takes longer? Assume apply for exit permit (reason: emigration) for 1 yr 364 days
Approval is immediate if you do it at their portal i.e NS Portal
14.995 Re-Apply Exit Permit 1 yr 364 days (in Singapore in person? Online? No bond?) Reason: emigration
On both occasion , you can state overseas studies too. Do it on line. If you do not have SingPass Login, call them , they will provide a temporary one. Call to NS Call Centre
16.5 Register, no need for medical checkup if deferment is approved
The Exit Permit from age 13 to 16 will be extended till 21 if approve. You need to safe keep this EP
21.0 Renounce SG citizenship, i.e. no chance to ever get employment pass, student pass etc. Just tourist visits
Yup. it is what it is

Wife: No HDB, loans, grants, benefits, MOE stuff. Short visits to family (less 1 month per year). Holds mandatory CPF account
Son's age Wife (SG citizen)
4.8 Left SG for Switzerland (CH); notified ICA of address change
4.8 Got temporary CH residence permit
9.8 Get permanent CH residence permit
14.8 Apply CH citizenship (earliest possible date), takes up to 2 yrs to get the citzenship
16.8 Get CH citizenship latest (2 yrs process) and then proceed to renounce SG citizenship

That's the plan. If she can acquire DE citizenship under spouse sponsorship is another option

As an aside: Son could apply CH citizenship age 11.5, and possibly get CH citizenship by age 13.5. But then he would have to do Swiss NS
Also know of Singaporeans in CH- their kids did Swiss NS and SG still wants them to do SG NS as well...

If your son does SG NS, he does not need to do CH NS as per Swiss law


MS, if you're still alive by then (as you wrote it), and I hope you have a very long and healthy life, how would I be able to contact you. Should I PM you my email address?

I am bit hesitant to go down this path. Yell when you are facing a stumbling block, someone or me will assist

You have to understand this
SG Statute of Law are set in stone
The guidelines around is so grey that individual officer that you review each case will interpret differently
This goes across all spectrum from immigration to housing etc
Your son is already a DE citizenship, a big tick
He has no benefits from SG Inc another big tick
Now permanently overseas another big tick
Your wife citizenship will come down to how they perceive the application. I do not think they will object his renunciation but things can go wrong hence the stumbling block I mentioned before
These guidelines are steps created by me . I have tested it and many have gone down this route safely. I have not come across one case that fails this route if followed to the T.
You cannot bake and eat the cake yourself. It is all or nothing
The family unit citizenship is just to make it watertight as the child is under 21 hence the parent is the sole guardian
At the end of the day, there is no right or wrong on which path you want to take for your child. I am neither against nor for NS. I served the army back in the 70s
It is your choice and your choice to make as long as you decide it as a family.
Good luck and god speed
The positive thinker sees the invisible, feels the intangible, and achieves the impossible.Yahoo !!!

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Re: Parent renounce Singapore citizenship to get son away from NS?

Post by AdopttobyAdopttoby » Mon, 13 Feb 2023 9:43 am

Hi All to this point
13.0 Apply for deferment pending renunciation at age 21; SG mother sends documentation that she has CH permanent residence and that earliest date for her CH citizenship is when son is nearly 15; son sends SG birth cert, German passport copy and German birth cert, Letter from Swiss school confirming attendance, proof of departure from SG
Can i know is this via Email (which address) or has it got to be snail mail?

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Re: Parent renounce Singapore citizenship to get son away from NS?

Post by sundaymorningstaple » Thu, 16 Feb 2023 9:45 pm

AdopttobyAdopttoby wrote:
Mon, 13 Feb 2023 9:43 am
Hi All to this point
13.0 Apply for deferment pending renunciation at age 21; SG mother sends documentation that she has CH permanent residence and that earliest date for her CH citizenship is when son is nearly 15; son sends SG birth cert, German passport copy and German birth cert, Letter from Swiss school confirming attendance, proof of departure from SG
Can i know is this via Email (which address) or has it got to be snail mail?
Apply for deferment are the key words here. Apply for does not mean it's a given. you need to get a response from CMPB/MINDEF that the deferment has been granted. I suggest sending it via both methods and notating in both forms that the other was also sent as a cross reference.
SOME PEOPLE TRY TO TURN BACK THEIR ODOMETERS. NOT ME. I WANT PEOPLE TO KNOW WHY I LOOK THIS WAY. I'VE TRAVELED A LONG WAY, AND SOME OF THE ROADS WEREN'T PAVED. ~ Will Rogers

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Re: Parent renounce Singapore citizenship to get son away from NS?

Post by malcontent » Sun, 19 Feb 2023 3:08 pm

It definitely pays to be informed about NS obligations ahead of time.

I know an American guy in my office who married a Singaporean and it wasn’t until her 3rd trimester that he realized SGC was unavoidable if she gave birth in SG. He knew they would be moving back to the US for good. They tried to get an exemption from SGC at birth, but it was denied. He booked a flight for them to the US, but couldn’t get a doctor in SG to sign off that she was safe to fly - they eventually found a doctor in the US that would, and so she managed to give birth to their son there. Surprisingly the IO didn’t even ask about the pregnancy when they arrived. About a year later they moved back to the US and have since had a second son.
Every great and deep difficulty bears in itself its own solution. It forces us to change our thinking in order to find it - Niels Bohr

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