Parent renounce Singapore citizenship to get son away from NS?

[montainlover]

Hi all,
We have been following this forum for a while and we are in the same situation as many others:
Me Singaporean, my husband not.
Living abroad, having kids and applied dual citizenship to keep doors open for our boys, not being aware of the issue this caused.

Actions before age of 11:
Boys have Singapore passports and used those for travels to Singapore and back (visit relatives).
Boys spent half a year in Singapore including public school.

Actions after age of 11:
No passport renewal, boys used the Singapore passports 1x in 2017, 1x in 2018 (2 weeks in Singapore in each year).

Actions after age 13:
Applied for deferment till 21 years old, pending renunciation of his SC -> not granted, apeal was rejected without mentioning any the reasons. Even though we offered to pay back any benefits we have been granted from Singapore.
Returned passports of our boys at local Singapore embassy to support our intention.
Now 15 years old and on Exit Permit without bond.

We read in other threads, that NS would focus on actions taken past 11 years old - which was not much in our case, but maybe still too much in the eyes of CMPB?

Kids are fully integrated abroad, will serve the local army later and we all have no intention to live in Singapore.
However, we would of course like to still visit relatives now and then.
How can we possibly achieve this?

Last option would be to pick up the citizenship of my husband and my children and hence give up my Singapore citizenship. Would that help CMPB to change their mind and release my boys from NS as to your knowledge? Is this the only way out?
As per this post bullet point no. 6/7, it might be the case or are there any changes or new ways since the post is older already?

Thank you so much in advance for helping with your appreciated experience!

[sundaymorningstaple]

The 'steps' in MS's post are just that. Steps. They must be followed and in the proper sequence. One cannot cherry-pick which steps they would like to use, 'or not'. Mindef is not going to budge as it is not in their interests to set precedence's that would be detrimental to the Singapore Military/Government.

If your son is prepared, he needs to do it. Ultimately it is best. It's only 2 years and he'll be better for it and additionally, he won't be slamming any doors by being a dodger or deserter. It is, after all, a small world. My question would be is why are you holding on to your own citizenship? You don't need citizenship to visit relatives over here.

[montainlover]

It is not an issue for me to renounce my Singapore citizenship and I am well prepared to do that, but I would like to be sure, that this way my sons get out of Singapore NS as they want to serve NS in their home county abroad.
So as to your knowledge, will this be the case?
So shall I do that step and then file another appeal with Mindef?

[sundaymorningstaple]

I cannot make a guess on something like that. Once the protocol has been broken, any variation will be difficult (if not impossible ). See, you will be showing the Government that what you are doing now is ONLY to get your son out of doing his legally obligated NS. The onus will be on you to convince them otherwise. That will be difficult to do now looking at the various time frames involved and the steps not taken timely. We have no idea if it will work or not. I personally doubt it this late in the game, but then stranger things have happened recently (Sept 2018 when the Thai/Singaporean boy was exempted after paying a 6K fine). This News article should give you some better ideas of where you stand and what you/he 'might' be able to expect as the best outcome. Copy & Paste the following into Google and read the article "in full".

"Thai national fined $6,000 for defaulting on national service obligations in Singapore"

[montainlover]

Thanks for your feedback. Highly apreciated!
So I guess we have to find out ourselfs.
If I renounce my Singapore citizenship and my son becomes a Singapore NS defaulter -> will I as a parent be liable?
IOW: If I enter Singapore next time, could I run into troubles or is it just my son's issue and he will avoid Singapore and be fine?

[sundaymorningstaple]

I cannot hazard a guess, especially in light of the instance noted. From this point it's all purely speculation. In theory, you should be able to still enter as a normal visitor as it would be your son who is breaking the law. (even though it's the parents who put the child into this position in the first place) As of yet I don't have any anecdotal evidence what would actually happen IF you were to come in as a tourist visa on a foreign passport. I am, of course, assuming that the Singapore government accepts your renunciation. (You also have to acquire a foreign passport before you can renounce - you don't want to end up a stateless person). Liability? Yes, if you do have a bond posted, you will lose it. If you default on the bond, I'm not sure what the legal ramifications might be, but I would think there would be a flag on your passport if you were still holding a SG passport. No telling on a foreign passport but as soon as you tried to renounce the cat would be out of the bag.

[montainlover]

Ok, thanks - maybe a lawyer would know the answer to the question. Would be great, if somebody would be able to answer.

[sundaymorningstaple]

As you have rightly noticed, this forum probably has probably the most detailed and comprehensive information for NS issues that can be found in a single location. I don't have any recommendations for lawyers as most will not touch this as it's almost impossible to argue a case against the Military here. However, they may well be able to answer your legal liability/potential costs. But ultimately, it pretty much 'ordained' he has to either do NS or never be allowed to step foot in Singapore in the future. And, as passports have more an more information embedded in those chips, there will come a point that he could well be picked up even in the transit lounge without ever trying to come through immigration as airlines will start sending passenger lists based on passport data to landing airports before the plane every takes off. If you manage to find something, please be sure to come back and let us know (either good or bad) as we try to pay it forward. That why some of us have been on the board here for over a decade. Good Luck.

[montainlover]

Checked with a lawyer about responsibility for parents for their kids:

1. Pursuant to section 33(f) of the Enlistment Act, any person (including parents) who aids,
abets or counsels another person (including their child) to do any of the following shall be
guilty of an offence and will be liable to a fine not exceeding S$10,000 or imprisonmentfor
a term not exceeding 3 years or both. This is regardless of the nationality or citizenship of
either parents:-
a. to not comply with any order or notice issuedto the person to be enlisted for NS;
b. to not fulfil his NS obligations;
c. to fraudulently obtain or attempt to obtain a postponement, release, discharge or
exemption from his NS obligations;
d. to intentionally evade service of any order or notice in respect ofhis NS obligations;
or
e. to furnish to MINDEFanyfalse or misleading information.

2. Further, parents may also beliable for failure to apply and obtain a valid EP for their son/s
and/or if parents fail to ensure that their son/s return to Singapore before the expiry of the
EP. However, the liability of the parents in this connection is only confined to when the child
in question is between the ages of 13 years to 16 years and 6 months old. Pursuantto section
32(4) ofthe Enlistment Act, each parent may be liable for a fine not exceeding S$2,000.

[PNGMK]

The big problem is you (the mother) kept your Singapore citizenship which showed that you did not, as a family unit, intend to settle permanently overseas. There may be other issues as I can't quite follow your timeline.

I am not sure you can get out of this one but keep trying and keep us updated.

For others reading this it's imperative that the family completely sever links with Singapore. There's no have your cake (CPF) and eat it too (HDB).

MS would have some insight but he rarely comes back these days.

[Mad Scientist]

@PNGMK

Sorry buddy, I am confused as hell on this post. Out of touch I guess

The dots are not connecting, I am missing something here.

@OP, it does not sounds right unless you are hiding something
When did your child return back to Singapore for schooling?
On which PP did he used ?
What age was that ?
At what age did he left Singapore for good ?
Did he get an EP and what is the validity period?
Did he obtained a foreign PP or just Permanent residency?
I can go on and on the number of questions to you.
You want us to shed some light on your predicament, you have to come clean or no help will be rendered

[PNGMK]

@PNGMK

Sorry buddy, I am confused as hell on this post. Out of touch I guess

The dots are not connecting, I am missing something here.

@OP, it does not sounds right unless you are hiding something
When did your child return back to Singapore for schooling?
On which PP did he used ?
What age was that ?
At what age did he left Singapore for good ?
Did he get an EP and what is the validity period?
Did he obtained a foreign PP or just Permanent residency?
I can go on and on the number of questions to you.
You want us to shed some light on your predicament, you have to come clean or no help will be rendered

IT sounds like the OP, as usual, tried to have her cake and eat it too but not revoking her Singapore citizenship when the children migrated. Possibly some other mistakes as well (HDB? CPF?). I wonder if she has also informed CPMB of the children's new citizenship.

[Koreba]

In our case, my wife is SG SC. She can't give up SG SC as of now as she doesn't have another citizenship. Takes 12 years here to be able to got it. By that time our son is 17/18 already.

Followed all the other steps for my son (no SG passport, left at young age (5), no IC, no other benefits, will do exit permit 1yr 364 days, son has other citizenship by birth already, no HDB)- so only point left would be the SG citizenship of my wife.

I guess we will see. If MS has a clear view if deferment (til my son's renunciation) is still possible despite my wife still having SG SC by the time my son is 17/18- would be much appreciated. Then we would just have to accept it as it is, i.e. NS will be required.

[Mad Scientist]

In our case, my wife is SG SC. She can't give up SG SC as of now as she doesn't have another citizenship. Takes 12 years here to be able to got it. By that time our son is 17/18 already.
There are a few countries that has moved their goalpost from PR to citizenship. Some countries have even place a time period of 3 to 5 years not as PR but just as the right to live and gain employment followed by another 3 years to gain PR and so forth. I can understand your precarious position
That said , has she been back to SG for the past 12 years and how long for ?
At any given time back in SG , what is the number of days during her visit
Does she own any HDB flat or owes SG Inc any loan, bursary etc ?
Same goes to your son ?


Followed all the other steps for my son (no SG passport, left at young age (5), no IC, no other benefits, will do exit permit 1yr 364 days, son has other citizenship by birth already, no HDB)- so only point left would be the SG citizenship of my wife.

How old is he now ?
Has he been given a letter to allow him to renounce at the age 21?

I guess we will see. If MS has a clear view if deferment (til my son's renunciation) is still possible despite my wife still having SG SC by the time my son is 17/18- would be much appreciated. Then we would just have to accept it as it is, i.e. NS will be required.

You need to fill me in more than this. I am getting old and cannot second guess your thoughts

[Koreba]

Dear MS. Thanks for getting back.

Moved from SG to Switzerland in 2019. In Switzerland, my wife can apply for citizenship after 10 years and the application process takes about 2 years. So the earliest she could have CH citizenship (and give up SG citizenship is late 2031). Since 2019 she has right to stay and work in CH. Permanent CH residence could be achieved in 2024 (or latest 2029).

My son was born in SG in 2014 (i.e. SG citizen by birth), so he is 8 now. No letter allowing him to renounce at age 21 as we haven't requested so far. Is that something we could get already?
He also already has another citizenship by birth.

As for the past 12 years:
2012 married
til 2014 wife and I lived overseas (outside SG)
2014-2019 lived in SG (for my work)
2019 left SG
SInce: We (the whole family) did a 2.5 week trip to SG this year (2022), my wife has visited by herself for another 10 days this year (2022) and we plan to visit 2-3 weeks per year to see relatives. If that lowers any chances of deferment then we will change that.

Neither wife nor son own HDB/other property, no loans, have smallish CPF account, no business connections, nothing. Just a small bank account. And CPF which can't be closed til giving up citizenship. Wife has her whole family in SG (parents, siblings etc.). She never worked in SG though (only overseas). We got married overseas.

Trying to be as clear as possible. No 2nd thoughts, not trying to trick anyone. We will not be back to Singapore and don't want anything from them. Til then will try to follow everything by the book, i.e. no socio-economic benefits whatsoever, get exit permit for 1 year 364 days etc. Only road-block at the moment is the above, that my wife can't give up SG citizenship til quite late in the process.

Thank you!