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Dual nationality, which one takes precedence?

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Re: Dual nationality, which one takes precedence?

Post by alvinlwh » Wed, 19 Dec 2018 7:30 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:
Based on the test case recently of the Thai guy, I would have to say that what we preached here in years gone by while still relevant, is certainly something that has a new facet due to the test case with the Thai who actually returned to do his NS as was required by law. They, uncharacteristically, bent a little bit. Which might be something that will happen more in the future but it still isn't something that I'd bet on. Another similar piece of news in the last couple of days is the high court overturned a lower courts rejection of a gay doctor being granted the ability to adopt his son who was born in the US with his seed and a donor egg by a surrogate mother which Singapore doesn't allow at all. Again, I wouldn't put any stock in this happening again anytime soon, but the simple fact that is has (both very recently) is enlightening, to say the least.

I thought so too. I will agree with you on this point, not worth the risk as there is no way in knowing what will happen in more than a decade's time. I had seen the Thai boy's case which prompted me to ask the questions, as his case will be the same as mine if I register my son(s). He already served NS in Thailand, his country of birth, yet he was forced to do NS in SG as well, which means he served NS twice. Poor boy.

If one holds Singapore Citizenship and is a male, he is obligated to do NS regardless of how he obtained it. (in theory - see my comments later on this). In most countries it means the country you are born in with only a very few that are different (the main one is the US - but I think that may have changed somewhat in the past 5~8 years) My children have two "Birth Certificates" one from Singapore where they were physically born and the other entitled "Birth Certificate of a Citizen born abroad" which signifies that they were a citizen at birth in both countries. Both of mine had dual citizenship US-SG. My son had to register with the MINDEF as well as the US Selective Service, so yes, he had the potential to be called up by either/both. But with the Draft in the US in Mothballs since 1975, there was little chance of a call up unless the US declared out and out war with somebody, But as I'm a US NAM Vet, I'm also a believer of Military Service but if he can do it and avoid an actual confrontation, he was going to do military service one way or another. My advice was to do it in Singapore as there was little to no danger that way and then the odds of the US calling him up were virtually nil. He did his NS in the Singapore Navy and is 29 now.

Please sir, do not make the mistake to think I am against NS. Quite the reverse, I am totally in favor of NS, I had served myself, so had my father. NS is a good maturing process. Take my brother in law for example, never served NS (Malaysian), came to UK for studies at 25, still crying at night for mummy. I too left SG at 25, and I walked through the departure gate at SIN without even looking back.The reason I singled out your postings is that you had said a few times that country of birth takes precedence, which I am not sure what it means when the country will not be SG in my case.

HOWEVER, I do have the issue of how will a person, who grew up and was educated overseas, will cope with the SG lifestyle and especially language in NS? He will know no Singlish nor know what the SGTs really mean. Can you imagine the amount of takan he will kanna when he catch no ball? I had seen it myself during my own time in NS where the foreign or English educated sons (angmoh pai, Banana Man, etc) get bullied both by the SGTs and the platoon mates.

Finally, looking at the number of recent deaths in SAF and SCDF, I find that NS is actually more dangerous today than 20 years ago when I served mine.


The simple answer to that, to me, is the fact that PR's sons who take up PR are also obligated by law to do NS as well as citizens. They are not SG Citizens and normally single country citizenships. That should tell you something.

PRs' sons can easily give up SPR if they decide that SG is not worth it, something that a SC (by birth or descent) cannot. That is why I am finding out as much information as possible before making a move.

From what I know, in the past, only attending the local school system into Secondary School was considered as having 'enjoyed' the socio-economic benefits of Singapore. Additionally, renewing a child's passport or gaining a NRIC in addition would condemn them to having enjoyed... This is why the age for alerting ICA about impending changing of citizenship used to be 11 years old (PSLE - Primary School Leaving Exams) Once having started Secondary School, bang! It was later changed primarily due to the introduction of the biometric passports as I've been given to understand.

Thanks, answered my question.

4. Is bond required for a long exit permit for a male SG citizen by descent that had never lived, studied, apply for PP, or otherwise gain any "benefits" of SG citizenship?

Technically, yes.

Well, I do not have S$75k sitting around, so I guess there will be no SG citizenship for my boy(s).

This one I can answer by close association as my employer's son is caught in that very predicament and is 27 now. I got to know of it when I joined the company 14 years ago when he was still in Secondary school in one of the International Schools. His sister, who is 2 years older gained PR here (no NS obligation) The father is Singaporean and own his own companies here (I'm the HR & Finance Mgr) with about 125 staff at the moment. His spouse is European and a PR (long term like myself). So, to avoid having to do NS (against my admonitions at the time). The boy was always kept on a Student Visa in one of the International Schools. However, as a minor child, obtaining a student visa necessitated the filing out of forms which, of course, gave up his father's citizenship. The cat was out of the bag. To this day, once the son finished his B.Sc & M.Sc in Civil Engrg from a good UK university, he was not allowed to a) get an employment pass regardless of the Salary; b) get an ltvp (no longer a student but an adult) and to make it worse the rejections from the MOM state that he has unresolved issues with the CMPB that need to be clarified. He can come into Singapore on a bog standard SVP on his UK passport but that's it. Once the child has to register for a student visa and hasn't applied to PR with a Singaporean parent, the gig is up and the child is probably forever flagged. At least it hasn't been brought down in the case I refer to. The female child isn't liable for NS. The male is and ICA and MINDEF take a poor view of somebody who is deliberately trying to pull a fast one.

This, sir, you had lumped two issues into one answer. However I managed to extract the information I need. My question was more towards if I have to return to SG in say 10 years' time, can he get PR or what. I am not asking on how to not get PR or SC to avoid NS. If the whole family is moving back to SG, then my son(s) can jolly well serve NS as he/they will have a support network there, plus they likely will have a few years to adopt to the local standards of life before starting NS. You story about how your employer's daughter got PR pretty much means the son can get PR even if unregistered at birth, which was my question as the dateline for registering as a SC by descent is within 1 year of the birth. I am not going to go back there and then keep him as a foreigner and pay extra fees for everything like education, healthcare, etc...

Unsure as I believe if you hold Singapore Citizenship, you cannot obtain Malaysian citizenship. I don't think the opposite is true however. So if you got his Singapore Citizenship first, that has pretty much put paid to getting Msian one. Sadly, I don't have anything to quote from at the moment.

My daughter got UK, SG and MY citizenship, in that order. Key to to apply for MY citizenship is to present at JPN as an UK citizen only. Of course this will only work if the person had a citizenship by birth that is not SG.

So my question still stands, if both SG and MY citizen by descent, and both countries called up the same person for NS at the same time, what then?

If you insist that this is not possible, then lets change MY to another country that has NS, like say, KR or TW, both of these countries allow dual citizenship and have NS. It is perfectly possible for a 16 1/2 years old male to be both aa SG and TW/KR citizen at the same time and to be called up for NS at the same time. What happens then?


No you are not doing anything illegal (strictly speaking) but you are trying to circumvent Singapore's laws (Not saying they are right or wrong) and you could, like my boss, screw your son's future as you do not know where he will end up or who he will be working for and then what happens when a huge promotion is dangled in front of him but he needs to to an overseas assignment for 2 years with the company's branch in Singapore. As you all like to say...die-die

Please. Think. Very. Carefully.


Sir, I am thinking very carefully, which is why I had been reading your posts (and MS) for years and now registered an account here to ask questions. I am aware that you had been living in SG for many years (or decades?) and surely you will know by now that what I am doing is typical Singaporean behaviour, kiasu and kiasi and screw the gov if one can (go right up to the line without crossing it).

However having served NS and serving time in DB, I had learnt 2 important SAF rules, which are important lessons for the rest of my life:
1. Do anything you like but don't get caught
2. If you get caught, can you afford what you will lose? (not necessary money)
I did say NS is great didn't I? :D

As for any future son(s), based on your and MS's replies, the best way forward is not to register as a SG by descent but let him apply as a WP/EP/PR/FT/new citizen in his adult life if he choose to.

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Re: Dual nationality, which one takes precedence?

Post by alvinlwh » Wed, 19 Dec 2018 10:44 pm

Mad Scientist wrote:Yes, SMS said is right, Once you inform them albeit apply your son SG citizenship when he is born that is it. He is hooked , sink, boat and the bait. it does not matter you apply here or overseas.
Don't even apply REP or SG citizenship.
Let him stay as UK citizenship / PP and apply on his own merit when the time comes. Then he has a chance to work and lives here in the future on this own like any other applicant on visa

If you do apply his SG citizenship by descent, NS guidelines kicks in no matter what reasons you provide, no go. The guidelines are very clear
This guidelines is set in stone. It will never change, I have been told about this 30 years ago and I am still waiting. Forget it, Ain't gonna happen !!


Dear MS (and SMS), few more questions regarding SC by descent specifically...

From the Constitution of Singapore

Deprivation of citizenship of child of person losing citizenship
130. Where a person has —
(a) renounced his citizenship; or
(b) been deprived of his citizenship under Article 129(2)(a) or 134(1)(a),
the Government may, by order, deprive of his citizenship any child of that person under the age of 21 years who has been registered as a citizen of Singapore pursuant to this Constitution and was so registered as being the child of that person or of that person’s wife or husband.

Deprivation of citizenship on acquisition of foreign citizenship
134.—(1) The Government may, by order, deprive a citizen of Singapore of his citizenship if the Government is satisfied that —
(a) he has, while of or over the age of 18 years, at any time after 6th April 1960 acquired by registration, naturalisation or other voluntary and formal act (other than marriage) the citizenship of any country outside Singapore or having so acquired such citizenship before the age of 18 years continues to retain it after that age


Will not the above make my children non SC then? If I announce to them that I have BC when my son is, say 15, they will of course make me give up something and if I give up SC, my child(ren) should all be no longer SC too and therefore no longer subjected to the Enlistment Act right?

Also, the SG gov had stated that they will view people who voluntarily renounced their SC or PR negatively in future applications, but what about minors that had their SC deprived involuntarily?

In fact, reading further on in the Constitution, I discovered that they should have deprived me of my SC a long time ago, way before I became a BC.

Deprivation of citizenship on exercise of rights of foreign nationals, etc.
135.—(1) The Government may, by order, deprive a citizen of Singapore of his citizenship if the Government is satisfied that —
(a) he has, while of or over the age of 18 years, at any time after 6th April 1960 voluntarily claimed and exercised any rights (other than any rights in connection with the use of a passport) available to him under the law of any country outside Singapore being rights accorded exclusively to the citizens or nationals of that country

(2) For the purposes of clause (1)(a), the exercise of a vote in any political election in a place outside Singapore shall be deemed to be the voluntary claim and exercise of a right available under the law of that place.


I had been voting in the UK elections since I set foot in the country as it is a right for any Commonwealth Citizens to vote here. Further more, being on the roll is one way for credit agencies to see if a person is real or not.

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Re: Dual nationality, which one takes precedence?

Post by sundaymorningstaple » Wed, 19 Dec 2018 11:23 pm

alvinlwh wrote:
Mad Scientist wrote:Yes, SMS said is right, Once you inform them albeit apply your son SG citizenship when he is born that is it. He is hooked , sink, boat and the bait. it does not matter you apply here or overseas.
Don't even apply REP or SG citizenship.
Let him stay as UK citizenship / PP and apply on his own merit when the time comes. Then he has a chance to work and lives here in the future on this own like any other applicant on visa

If you do apply his SG citizenship by descent, NS guidelines kicks in no matter what reasons you provide, no go. The guidelines are very clear
This guidelines is set in stone. It will never change, I have been told about this 30 years ago and I am still waiting. Forget it, Ain't gonna happen !!


Dear MS (and SMS), few more questions regarding SC by descent specifically...

From the Constitution of Singapore

Deprivation of citizenship of child of person losing citizenship
130. Where a person has —
(a) renounced his citizenship; or
(b) been deprived of his citizenship under Article 129(2)(a) or 134(1)(a),
the Government may, by order, deprive of his citizenship any child of that person under the age of 21 years who has been registered as a citizen of Singapore pursuant to this Constitution and was so registered as being the child of that person or of that person’s wife or husband.

Deprivation of citizenship on acquisition of foreign citizenship
134.—(1) The Government may, by order, deprive a citizen of Singapore of his citizenship if the Government is satisfied that —
(a) he has, while of or over the age of 18 years, at any time after 6th April 1960 acquired by registration, naturalisation or other voluntary and formal act (other than marriage) the citizenship of any country outside Singapore or having so acquired such citizenship before the age of 18 years continues to retain it after that age


Will not the above make my children non SC then? If I announce to them that I have BC when my son is, say 15, they will of course make me give up something and if I give up SC, my child(ren) should all be no longer SC too and therefore no longer subjected to the Enlistment Act right?

As a Singaporean, you would also know that the Gahment always leave themselves a back or side door where possibly necessary. In this case the key words are the first 5 words of the preamble "The Government MAY, by order, deprive a citizen..." with the third being the keystone word. They do not have to and they have worded it such just so they can keep the rules for Males as you cannot give up your citizenship if your are a male until such time as you have done your National Service. The ultimate penalty is spelled out in the constitution but with a preamble that eliminates the finality of the statement by using the word MAY. Therefore they would still have your son by the short and curlys as it were.

Also, the SG gov had stated that they will view people who voluntarily renounced their SC or PR negatively in future applications, but what about minors that had their SC deprived involuntarily?

In fact, reading further on in the Constitution, I discovered that they should have deprived me of my SC a long time ago, way before I became a BC.

Deprivation of citizenship on exercise of rights of foreign nationals, etc.
135.—(1) The Government may, by order, deprive a citizen of Singapore of his citizenship if the Government is satisfied that —
(a) he has, while of or over the age of 18 years, at any time after 6th April 1960 voluntarily claimed and exercised any rights (other than any rights in connection with the use of a passport) available to him under the law of any country outside Singapore being rights accorded exclusively to the citizens or nationals of that country.

(2) For the purposes of clause (1)(a), the exercise of a vote in any political election in a place outside Singapore shall be deemed to be the voluntary claim and exercise of a right available under the law of that place.


I had been voting in the UK elections since I set foot in the country as it is a right for any Commonwealth Citizens to vote here. Further more, being on the roll is one way for credit agencies to see if a person is real or not.

I think my question would be, have you told them? My reading of Clause (a) and (2) leads me to you not being able to be deprived of your citizenship as you are allowed to vote "voluntarily" and voting there are not "rights accorded exclusively to the citizens or nationals of that country." but also open for members of commonwealth countries as well, of which Singapore is one. So I don't think any of that has any bearing or leverage in of itself.

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Re: Dual nationality, which one takes precedence?

Post by alvinlwh » Thu, 20 Dec 2018 1:05 am

sundaymorningstaple wrote:
As a Singaporean, you would also know that the Gahment always leave themselves a back or side door where possibly necessary. In this case the key words are the first 5 words of the preamble "The Government MAY, by order, deprive a citizen..." with the third being the keystone word. They do not have to and they have worded it such just so they can keep the rules for Males as you cannot give up your citizenship if your are a male until such time as you have done your National Service. The ultimate penalty is spelled out in the constitution but with a preamble that eliminates the finality of the statement by using the word MAY. Therefore they would still have your son by the short and curlys as it were.

Well very true this. Which is why I am asking questions on other ways out.

I think my question would be, have you told them? My reading of Clause (a) and (2) leads me to you not being able to be deprived of your citizenship as you are allowed to vote "voluntarily" and voting there are not "rights accorded exclusively to the citizens or nationals of that country." but also open for members of commonwealth countries as well, of which Singapore is one. So I don't think any of that has any bearing or leverage in of itself.


Voting in the UK is voluntarily only, not compulsory. Therefore I voluntarily added myself to the roll and voluntarily walked to the polling station on election day. I do not have to as there are no laws in place forcing me to. (2) was worded in that manner as most countries only allow citizens to vote and being able to vote is a test of if the person is a citizen of the country or not. I suspect they had forgotten that a small number of countries do allow foreigners to vote.



SMS, while we are here, I will like to bring your attention to an old post.

viewtopic.php?t=110747

The OP's situation is exactly how my future sons' situation will likely to be, born overseas, SC by descent, live overseas, study overseas, no SG PP or IC.
(other situations such as moving back had been covered by both yourself and MS already)

In that guy's situation, both yourself and MS cleared him. Not only that, ICA revoked his SC and MINDEF cleared him as well.

Specifically, you said:

"...I know this first hand and have seen one of these letters on the day it was received and the referral to clearing one's position regarding NS. It sounds like he may well have escaped as on hindsight/reflection, he was born overseas, never lived in Singapore, received citizenship at birth from the country he was born in, so he's a naturalized Singaporean by birth but not first claim (which belongs to the country where he was born). The means test normally used is whether or not the child has ever received any socio-economic benefits from being a SG citizen. In his case, the answer is no. He's never lived in SG, Never had a SG passport nor an NRIC, therefore, he should be clear and that is probably why he's not received any response from Mindef and DID get issued with an IPA from MOM. I'd now have to say I'm pretty sure he's actually clear to go..."

Which contradicts with what you had told me:

"If one holds Singapore Citizenship and is a male, he is obligated to do NS regardless of how he obtained it."

Also MS seems to confirm what you had said on that post.

"Kid, you are good to go.

Herein lies the finer details. As long as you have received the renounce letter from ICA and on top of what SMS said about gaining Singapore Passport which you DID NOT. There is nothing stopping you from working here with the proper IPA letter or whatever you call it approved by MOM.
MOM already knew and confirm with Mindef. Stop worrying.
NS liabilities only befall on oneself when one scoot from SG and unable to renounce SG citizenship which you did renounce and approved by ICA"

But contradicts that with his post to me:

"If you do apply his SG citizenship by descent, NS guidelines kicks in no matter what reasons you provide, no go."

His parents actually ignored the NS letters set to their overseas address, meaning no EP and no bond and ICA still revoked his SC without problems. And then MINDEF actually confirmed with the OP that he has no NS liability as well.

viewtopic.php?t=110747&start=15#p743952

The result of his case and your (and MS's) replies to him seem to contradict what you guys had said to me so far. I am confused, can you clarify which is which?

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Re: Dual nationality, which one takes precedence?

Post by Mad Scientist » Thu, 20 Dec 2018 7:34 pm

Alright mate

This is getting very nitty gritty.
First of all application is based on its own merit be it in work visa, renunciation anything in Singapore. They cast a very wide net hence you negotiate with your eyes wide open
I have gone thru hundreds of cases maybe thousand, I don't know. I lost track. I can keep up
I have denied many here be it on open post, pm etc and other places as its too much to handle. I don't get paid at all .Just trying to help for those THAT REALLY NEED HELP.
Heck I have to change my mobile number ten times
So what you ask me based on the old post could be that he send me a pm and I replied to him after looking up his case thoroughly. I really cannot recall as I deleted confidential pm after a reply
Orang tua. OK ?
But there is a general guideline which we have gone through and many like myself, my boys and girls have gone through. These has been thoroughly researched and well documented by me and others like SMS, SE , old warriors from unknown kingdom
If you want your unborn to have a chance, you yourself should renounce and your wife too. This will make a level playing field. You cut ties completely hence no trace at all
Which comes to our comment earlier on " You cannot bake and eat the cake yourself?
The case officer that deals with work visa or PR application etc will be a 10 years series book in his or her hand. They punch all the numbers based on what was provided that it is yes or no. yet again when it comes to election year, the number are punch three times before you are able to get a yes or no. On top of that there will be a little tweaking on the guideline based on anything that concerns the gahmen of that time. YOU GET MY DRIFT ????
So what we provide is I should say 95% accurate. That 5% is "based on its own merit"
Those that follow what we said to the T usually cross the line easily. But if you have skeleton in your cupboard , all bets are off

It is different when I applied for my OZ and Swedish citizenship , the immigration department literally tells you what you are lacking and what you should be doing to get across.
In Singapore, these are left to the devil's pen that writes the poison letter

Having said all these which this is the second time in many months I have replied to someone in person in this forum which I rarely do nowadays albeit ORANG TUA.
Do you really need all this drama?
Will you lose anything by not working or living in Singapore?
It is a global market , Singapore is not the only place that you can make it out.
For all you know your unborn so might not want to work and have PR in Singapore
My boys and girls never felt any loss when they renounced SG citizenship.
They are doing well, raised a family and have jobs and enjoy stress-less drama

Don't over complicate yourself.
The positive thinker sees the invisible, feels the intangible, and achieves the impossible.Yahoo !!!

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Re: Dual nationality, which one takes precedence?

Post by alvinlwh » Thu, 20 Dec 2018 8:38 pm

Mad Scientist wrote:Alright mate

This is getting very nitty gritty.
First of all application is based on its own merit be it in work visa, renunciation anything in Singapore. They cast a very wide net hence you negotiate with your eyes wide open
I have gone thru hundreds of cases maybe thousand, I don't know. I lost track. I can keep up
I have denied many here be it on open post, pm etc and other places as its too much to handle. I don't get paid at all .Just trying to help for those THAT REALLY NEED HELP.
Heck I have to change my mobile number ten times
So what you ask me based on the old post could be that he send me a pm and I replied to him after looking up his case thoroughly. I really cannot recall as I deleted confidential pm after a reply
Orang tua. OK ?
But there is a general guideline which we have gone through and many like myself, my boys and girls have gone through. These has been thoroughly researched and well documented by me and others like SMS, SE , old warriors from unknown kingdom
If you want your unborn to have a chance, you yourself should renounce and your wife too. This will make a level playing field. You cut ties completely hence no trace at all
Which comes to our comment earlier on " You cannot bake and eat the cake yourself?
The case officer that deals with work visa or PR application etc will be a 10 years series book in his or her hand. They punch all the numbers based on what was provided that it is yes or no. yet again when it comes to election year, the number are punch three times before you are able to get a yes or no. On top of that there will be a little tweaking on the guideline based on anything that concerns the gahmen of that time. YOU GET MY DRIFT ????
So what we provide is I should say 95% accurate. That 5% is "based on its own merit"
Those that follow what we said to the T usually cross the line easily. But if you have skeleton in your cupboard , all bets are off

It is different when I applied for my OZ and Swedish citizenship , the immigration department literally tells you what you are lacking and what you should be doing to get across.
In Singapore, these are left to the devil's pen that writes the poison letter

Having said all these which this is the second time in many months I have replied to someone in person in this forum which I rarely do nowadays albeit ORANG TUA.
Do you really need all this drama?
Will you lose anything by not working or living in Singapore?
It is a global market , Singapore is not the only place that you can make it out.
For all you know your unborn so might not want to work and have PR in Singapore
My boys and girls never felt any loss when they renounced SG citizenship.
They are doing well, raised a family and have jobs and enjoy stress-less drama

Don't over complicate yourself.


Wow! I do not know what this anger is for? I did not PM you, nor did I request for to PM you (nevermind your phone number).

However, it seems that your anger had clouded your eyes so much that you cannot seem to read properly as evidenced by this statement:

"If you want your unborn to have a chance, you yourself should renounce and your wife too. This will make a level playing field. You cut ties completely hence no trace at all"

I had said my wife is a Malaysian with UK ILR in my first post, clearly you had missed that. So not sure what is the point of getting her to renounce.

Also, you are adamant that it is impossible to get both SG and MY citizenship at the same time while I had proven that it is possible.

Finally, in your old posts, for people with the same situation as I posted, you said straight up that they will have no problems with MINDEF and yet for my case it is "based on merit". I had seen many people asking questions and getting told off for not reading old posts where similar questions had already been answered and now you are telling me off for reading old posts??? Amazing!

I get it that you are tired. OK, I will stop bothering you then. After all, the answers from you hardly seems to be concise anyway.

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Re: Dual nationality, which one takes precedence?

Post by sundaymorningstaple » Fri, 21 Dec 2018 12:17 am

Tmes change and so does the government. Therefore how is anybody able to give you a 100% clearcut answer. The Thai chap getting off after actually coming to Singapore has thrown a major spanner in all their past history. What I may have said 10 years ago may not dovetail with what has happened in 2018. We can give you the best answer we can but we are NOT the government or Mindef. Neither are we holding inside tracks to ICA or the MOM. But what we do is sift through our own research at any given point of time and using a little Kentucky windage, give you our thoughts. Nothing is cast in stone especially with a government who will let their High court allow the adoption of a 5 years old boy by an openly gay couple, Dr or not and in the same breath say they will be looking at tweaking the laws to prevent that from happening in the future. So you tell us. How do we give you a 100% accurate answer. We give you our best answer at a given point of time. You have two choices, what you do is up to you. We tend to err on the side of caution as we don't like to promise something that is beyond our ability to deliver. But you will always get our honest thoughts and I'm sure you already know that with the research of our archives that you have performed (one of the few who has done their homework). Like I said about my boss and his son. He (my boss) is a know-it-all who is Mensa qualified and poo-pooed what I told him what was going to happen with his son. His reasoning? He is a card-carrying PAP member as well. Guess what. They could care less if he was an MP, the same thing would have happened. Singapore has lost many a 'brain" due to their narrow P.O.V.s and will probably continue to do so in the future. Approximately 1200 families immigrate every years, most with a young son.

So, anyway, I wish you luck. Or should I say, I wish your future son luck, he may need a large dollop of it. If you like you gamble with your son's future, grab all the citizenship papers you can get your hands on. If your gamble is wrong, then there will be a very good possibility that you son may hate what you did to him if he cannot come to Singapore without fear of being picked up as a deserter. However, as we did say early on, if you write a letter prior to his 13 birthday to advise the CMPB that your son will be renouncing his citizenship at the age of 21 (and there is where you may have a problem). Assuming you no longer have any ties to Singapore, e.g., CPF, HDB, SG citizenship, he may well get an exit visa which will need to be renewed every 364 days or you will need to post a bond or surety for a longer term exit permit. It's only then that he can skip NS. The Thai boy actually received his report notices and the mother didn't do anything about them and didn't have exit permits either. If you still have assets in Singapore and SG citizenship, all bets are off even getting permission to apply for an exit permit. Again, good luck.

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Re: Dual nationality, which one takes precedence?

Post by The Ref » Fri, 21 Dec 2018 12:22 am

alvinlwh wrote:
Mad Scientist wrote:Alright mate
...


Wow! I do not know what this anger is for? I did not PM you, nor did I request for to PM you (nevermind your phone number).

However, it seems that your anger had clouded your eyes so much that you cannot seem to read properly as evidenced by this statement:
...

I would suggest that whether you are right or wrong, the way you responded to alvinwh will mean nobody would bother with the risk of responding to you.

It looks like you are looking for the answer that you will be right/allowed to take all the benefits and no cost when others in the past have not.

People here are volunteers, and offer their experience at no cost to help eachother. You having a go at alvinwh just makes you look like a twat

Good luck, you wont listen to advice so why dont you try to get everything. In the end, it is your kids that will suffer but you will be able to say you told someone off. Good on you

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Re: Dual nationality, which one takes precedence?

Post by alvinlwh » Fri, 21 Dec 2018 2:01 am

sundaymorningstaple wrote:Assuming you no longer have any ties to Singapore, e.g., CPF, HDB, SG citizenship, he may well get an exit visa which will need to be renewed every 364 days or you will need to post a bond or surety for a longer term exit permit. It's only then that he can skip NS. The Thai boy actually received his report notices and the mother didn't do anything about them and didn't have exit permits either. If you still have assets in Singapore and SG citizenship, all bets are off even getting permission to apply for an exit permit. Again, good luck.


Thank you for your answer. Now, do understand what you are saying about the SG gov, they make the rules but do not always follow them.

I do have a question, if I give up my SC, what will happen to my children's SC by decent? Get void along with my SC? That is certainly one way to get out of NS!

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Re: Dual nationality, which one takes precedence?

Post by sundaymorningstaple » Fri, 21 Dec 2018 8:55 am

If you gave up your SC your son would not lose his. In fact, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't as that would be the easy way out of NS just immigrate and the parents give up their SC so the boy escapes NS. It doesn't work quite that way. You give up SC, Write letter to CMPB before shortly before his 13th birthday indicating you have immigrated and have given up SC and you are requesting renunciation of your son's SC which can only be accomplished at the age of 21 but as he is taking up foreign citizenship, CMPB will probably grant him the exit permit(s) or have bond/surety posted. Once boy reaches 21, assuming no stumbling along the way (it's a deliberate minefield), He will be free to renounce. Until or unless protocol is followed to the 'T' he will retain his SC (once the gahment has it's claws set it is not easy to escape their clutches without running foul of the law). The whole premise behind the parents giving up their SC is that the gahment figures if the parents are still holding assets in Singapore, the only reason for immigrating (on the surface) was to help male offspring to evade NS and by keeping assets/SG citizenship you are keeping a back door open. And if you think about it, if you are immigrating, why are you still holding SG assets/CPF, etc. It's a valid point if you look at it realistically. But the son, by virtue of his SC will be the one to ultimately pay for the sins of the parents (who do not realize the potential pitfalls of what they are doing). This is why we harp on the worst case scenarios.

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Re: Dual nationality, which one takes precedence?

Post by sundaymorningstaple » Fri, 21 Dec 2018 9:06 am

Another thing to think about (and I don't have the time this morning to do any research in the old back threads or elsewhere for that matter, is the whole "dual citizenship" thing with the SG government is allowed only for the citizenship of the parents, e.g. like myself, with a Singaporean Mother and an American Father (mine had dual due to the old "birth of a citizen born abroad afforded to children of a parent who is a Natural born citizen of the US and had lived for at least 10 years in the US before the birth of the child). So US/SG dual parentage is somewhat special as the child of this union are afforded citizenship by birth by both countries (the US is one of the few countries that affords that birthright). But whether the SG government will recognize a child with dual citizenship if you are a British Citizen and your wife a Malaysian citizen, I doubt it. In fact, I don't think it is even possible. I'd have to see the rules here again, as the way I understand it is that rule of SC by descent is afforded to only those children born outside of Singapore to at least one Singaporean Parent. If you have given up your SC before the child is born and your wife is a MC, you may not be able to even get SC for the child at all. I cannot give you an answer on this and this is purely my thoughts for speculation. But if you think about it, it makes logical sense. But I don't have an answer based on knowledge or anecdotal evidence either.

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Re: Dual nationality, which one takes precedence?

Post by alvinlwh » Fri, 21 Dec 2018 10:29 am

sundaymorningstaple wrote:Another thing to think about (and I don't have the time this morning to do any research in the old back threads or elsewhere for that matter, is the whole "dual citizenship" thing with the SG government is allowed only for the citizenship of the parents, e.g. like myself, with a Singaporean Mother and an American Father (mine had dual due to the old "birth of a citizen born abroad afforded to children of a parent who is a Natural born citizen of the US and had lived for at least 10 years in the US before the birth of the child). So US/SG dual parentage is somewhat special as the child of this union are afforded citizenship by birth by both countries (the US is one of the few countries that affords that birthright). But whether the SG government will recognize a child with dual citizenship if you are a British Citizen and your wife a Malaysian citizen, I doubt it. In fact, I don't think it is even possible. I'd have to see the rules here again, as the way I understand it is that rule of SC by descent is afforded to only those children born outside of Singapore to at least one Singaporean Parent. If you have given up your SC before the child is born and your wife is a MC, you may not be able to even get SC for the child at all. I cannot give you an answer on this and this is purely my thoughts for speculation. But if you think about it, it makes logical sense. But I don't have an answer based on knowledge or anecdotal evidence either.


The answer to your question in this post is UK gives children born in the UK (jus soli) to a parent (single, either) that is legally settled, meaning ILR (their PR) or citizens. Therefore even by my wife's virtue of having an UK ILR, the child will be a BC by birth. This is how I got my first daughter SC by descent, by declaring to ICA that I am an ILR holder only, and therefore she is a BC by birth legally. This works as the old style ILR does not have an expiry date and are still valid even when the passport it was attached to expires.

The fact that I also holds BC was never revealed to SG gov (of course), just like many other SC holding another citizenship. Passport renewal at ICA in Kallang only and the cat will stay in the bag.

As for your other post, I will have to read it again when I wake up. It is way past bedtime here now, so it is good night to me, good morning to you.

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Re: Dual nationality, which one takes precedence?

Post by Mad Scientist » Fri, 21 Dec 2018 11:04 am

OP

You are not reading my post properly. Read between the lines for godsake!
This is an open forum
You wanted exact antidote for your pain. Paracetamol cures many ailment including stomach pain .
The general rule of thumb is there. 95% accuracy is not good for you ?
OK, you win
I'm going pig hunting after this no more posting. I give up
The positive thinker sees the invisible, feels the intangible, and achieves the impossible.Yahoo !!!

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Re: Dual nationality, which one takes precedence?

Post by sundaymorningstaple » Fri, 21 Dec 2018 11:45 am

alvinlwh wrote:The answer to your question in this post is UK gives children born in the UK (jus soli) to a parent (single, either) that is legally settled, meaning ILR (their PR) or citizens. Therefore even by my wife's virtue of having an UK ILR, the child will be a BC by birth. This is how I got my first daughter SC by descent, by declaring to ICA that I am an ILR holder only, and therefore she is a BC by birth legally. This works as the old style ILR does not have an expiry date and are still valid even when the passport it was attached to expires.

The fact that I also holds BC was never revealed to SG gov (of course), just like many other SC holding another citizenship. Passport renewal at ICA in Kallang only and the cat will stay in the bag.


So, in an age of technology where you need to board flights with passports and more and more information is put into the biometrics of those passports, how long do you reckon before whole histories are on those chip? Things like DOB, Place of birth, Race, gender, etc. Oh, did I mention Place of birth? I reckon you better get a deed poll done as if your British Passport comes up with place of birth: Singapore and Singapore does a scan of your name, race, DOB it will also turn up a valid passport as all the government databases have been interconnected for the past three years now. It's how they catch a lot of Deserters as well. The databases can turn up data in milliseconds. You get your passport scanned, a canned search is done based on your Name race and DOB. If it comes up a positive, maybe they check further with ICA for current status? If a valid passport has been issued they may question why you are using a British Passport. (Dual citizenship isn't allowed, remember?) I think, in your quest to defraud the government here, you are going to find yourself is a deep pile of brown stuff if you are not careful. Why don't you just cut ties rather than involve an unborn son in your manipulations. That's not being fair to him.

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Re: Dual nationality, which one takes precedence?

Post by alvinlwh » Fri, 21 Dec 2018 6:39 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:So, in an age of technology where you need to board flights with passports and more and more information is put into the biometrics of those passports, how long do you reckon before whole histories are on those chip? Things like DOB, Place of birth, Race, gender, etc. Oh, did I mention Place of birth? I reckon you better get a deed poll done as if your British Passport comes up with place of birth: Singapore and Singapore does a scan of your name, race, DOB it will also turn up a valid passport as all the government databases have been interconnected for the past three years now. It's how they catch a lot of Deserters as well. The databases can turn up data in milliseconds. You get your passport scanned, a canned search is done based on your Name race and DOB. If it comes up a positive, maybe they check further with ICA for current status? If a valid passport has been issued they may question why you are using a British Passport. (Dual citizenship isn't allowed, remember?)


Sir, I thought this traveling with 2 passport issue had been discussed to death on this forum? ALWAYS enter one's own country with that country's passport. Many had done that without problems as long as they do not exercise the rights of the second country in SG.

Anyway, I had been a BC for over 5 years now and had been to SG 3 times (actually more like 7 times because I also travelled to MY and back) in that time.

First time:
Travelled with SGPP and BC certificate and old SGPP with ILR.
In and out of SG, MY and UK without problem. Slight delay at LHR UKBA as they need to go away to check my BC certificate.
Also renewed SGPP at ICA. No problems.

Second time:
Travelled with SGPP and UKPP and daughter with UKPP. Entered SG on my SGPP, daughter with her UKPP and SC certificate. No problems although her UKPP did get stamped. Note that at this point, she is already a BC and SC as I had done the application remotely.

Exited SG on my SGPP and her UKPP. Did have a slight problem entering MY at Second Link with our UKPP where the MY IO noticed that my brand new UKPP has no SG stamp and if entering MY at Second Link, the only possible country one can be from will be SG. Asked me if I am a SPR and I just said yes. Asked for my IC and I presented my pink NRIC and he stamped and waved us through no problem. The reason I have to enter MY with my UKPP is we are applying for my daughter's Malaysian Citizenship by descent without wanting them to know that we are also in fact SC. Returned to SG on my own and entered with my SGPP no problem. Picked up her SGPP at ICA and returned to MY to pick her up with my SGPP, no problem. Returned to SG on both our SGPP, no problem.

Did have another problem at check in back to UK, airline refused me checking in because I did not have a resident permit on a one way (return leg) ticket. Presented my UKPP, checked in, boarded no problem.

Third time:
Entered MY on our UKPP, no problem. Exited MY on our UKPP and I entered SG on our SGPP at KUL, no problem.

Had another slight problem at the Causeway entering JB where the MY IO's computer flagged me up (as you said, computers) for having entering the country a few weeks ago on a UK PP. Asked me if I also have another passport, just said yes and he stamped and wave me through no problem (not their problem anyway). Re-entered SG on the same day, no problem.

Entered MY again in a few days' time, this time at SZB with my SGPP, no problem. Daughter exited MY on her UKPP and we both entered SG on our SGPP, no problem.

On check in for our flight back to the UK, presented our UKPP at check in (tickets were booked using SGPP details), no problem. Exited SG on our SGPP, no problem either.

I had said in my very first post I had researched extensively on this (and other) forums, this include finding out how to enter and exit from SG with 2 PP and how to renew PP sucessfully. Even lack of stamps in the PP can now be easily be explained away by saying the countries that I had been in do not put stamps in PP or I specifically requested them not to stamp (some countries can not, do that you know?).

So here are my evidence, anecdotal or otherwise. Anyhow, I cannot understand why we are talking about me, or even my daughter with UK, SG and MY citizenship (even though it was often said to be impossible), for so long, the question is about my future child(ren) not me.

sundaymorningstaple wrote:I think, in your quest to defraud the government here, you are going to find yourself is a deep pile of brown stuff if you are not careful. Why don't you just cut ties rather than involve an unborn son in your manipulations. That's not being fair to him.


This, sir, if you had been in SG long enough, you will know why. What is this brown stuff you are talking about? Far as I can find, the only punishment they can dish out to dual citizens is to strip them of their SG citizenship, no other fines or jail terms specified.

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