Sir, I am thinking very carefully, which is why I had been reading your posts (and MS) for years and now registered an account here to ask questions. I am aware that you had been living in SG for many years (or decades?) and surely you will know by now that what I am doing is typical Singaporean behaviour, kiasu and kiasi and screw the gov if one can (go right up to the line without crossing it).sundaymorningstaple wrote:
Based on the test case recently of the Thai guy, I would have to say that what we preached here in years gone by while still relevant, is certainly something that has a new facet due to the test case with the Thai who actually returned to do his NS as was required by law. They, uncharacteristically, bent a little bit. Which might be something that will happen more in the future but it still isn't something that I'd bet on. Another similar piece of news in the last couple of days is the high court overturned a lower courts rejection of a gay doctor being granted the ability to adopt his son who was born in the US with his seed and a donor egg by a surrogate mother which Singapore doesn't allow at all. Again, I wouldn't put any stock in this happening again anytime soon, but the simple fact that is has (both very recently) is enlightening, to say the least.
I thought so too. I will agree with you on this point, not worth the risk as there is no way in knowing what will happen in more than a decade's time. I had seen the Thai boy's case which prompted me to ask the questions, as his case will be the same as mine if I register my son(s). He already served NS in Thailand, his country of birth, yet he was forced to do NS in SG as well, which means he served NS twice. Poor boy.
If one holds Singapore Citizenship and is a male, he is obligated to do NS regardless of how he obtained it. (in theory - see my comments later on this). In most countries it means the country you are born in with only a very few that are different (the main one is the US - but I think that may have changed somewhat in the past 5~8 years) My children have two "Birth Certificates" one from Singapore where they were physically born and the other entitled "Birth Certificate of a Citizen born abroad" which signifies that they were a citizen at birth in both countries. Both of mine had dual citizenship US-SG. My son had to register with the MINDEF as well as the US Selective Service, so yes, he had the potential to be called up by either/both. But with the Draft in the US in Mothballs since 1975, there was little chance of a call up unless the US declared out and out war with somebody, But as I'm a US NAM Vet, I'm also a believer of Military Service but if he can do it and avoid an actual confrontation, he was going to do military service one way or another. My advice was to do it in Singapore as there was little to no danger that way and then the odds of the US calling him up were virtually nil. He did his NS in the Singapore Navy and is 29 now.
Please sir, do not make the mistake to think I am against NS. Quite the reverse, I am totally in favor of NS, I had served myself, so had my father. NS is a good maturing process. Take my brother in law for example, never served NS (Malaysian), came to UK for studies at 25, still crying at night for mummy. I too left SG at 25, and I walked through the departure gate at SIN without even looking back.The reason I singled out your postings is that you had said a few times that country of birth takes precedence, which I am not sure what it means when the country will not be SG in my case.
HOWEVER, I do have the issue of how will a person, who grew up and was educated overseas, will cope with the SG lifestyle and especially language in NS? He will know no Singlish nor know what the SGTs really mean. Can you imagine the amount of takan he will kanna when he catch no ball? I had seen it myself during my own time in NS where the foreign or English educated sons (angmoh pai, Banana Man, etc) get bullied both by the SGTs and the platoon mates.
Finally, looking at the number of recent deaths in SAF and SCDF, I find that NS is actually more dangerous today than 20 years ago when I served mine.
The simple answer to that, to me, is the fact that PR's sons who take up PR are also obligated by law to do NS as well as citizens. They are not SG Citizens and normally single country citizenships. That should tell you something.
PRs' sons can easily give up SPR if they decide that SG is not worth it, something that a SC (by birth or descent) cannot. That is why I am finding out as much information as possible before making a move.
From what I know, in the past, only attending the local school system into Secondary School was considered as having 'enjoyed' the socio-economic benefits of Singapore. Additionally, renewing a child's passport or gaining a NRIC in addition would condemn them to having enjoyed... This is why the age for alerting ICA about impending changing of citizenship used to be 11 years old (PSLE - Primary School Leaving Exams) Once having started Secondary School, bang! It was later changed primarily due to the introduction of the biometric passports as I've been given to understand.
Thanks, answered my question.
4. Is bond required for a long exit permit for a male SG citizen by descent that had never lived, studied, apply for PP, or otherwise gain any "benefits" of SG citizenship?
Well, I do not have S$75k sitting around, so I guess there will be no SG citizenship for my boy(s).
This one I can answer by close association as my employer's son is caught in that very predicament and is 27 now. I got to know of it when I joined the company 14 years ago when he was still in Secondary school in one of the International Schools. His sister, who is 2 years older gained PR here (no NS obligation) The father is Singaporean and own his own companies here (I'm the HR & Finance Mgr) with about 125 staff at the moment. His spouse is European and a PR (long term like myself). So, to avoid having to do NS (against my admonitions at the time). The boy was always kept on a Student Visa in one of the International Schools. However, as a minor child, obtaining a student visa necessitated the filing out of forms which, of course, gave up his father's citizenship. The cat was out of the bag. To this day, once the son finished his B.Sc & M.Sc in Civil Engrg from a good UK university, he was not allowed to a) get an employment pass regardless of the Salary; b) get an ltvp (no longer a student but an adult) and to make it worse the rejections from the MOM state that he has unresolved issues with the CMPB that need to be clarified. He can come into Singapore on a bog standard SVP on his UK passport but that's it. Once the child has to register for a student visa and hasn't applied to PR with a Singaporean parent, the gig is up and the child is probably forever flagged. At least it hasn't been brought down in the case I refer to. The female child isn't liable for NS. The male is and ICA and MINDEF take a poor view of somebody who is deliberately trying to pull a fast one.
This, sir, you had lumped two issues into one answer. However I managed to extract the information I need. My question was more towards if I have to return to SG in say 10 years' time, can he get PR or what. I am not asking on how to not get PR or SC to avoid NS. If the whole family is moving back to SG, then my son(s) can jolly well serve NS as he/they will have a support network there, plus they likely will have a few years to adopt to the local standards of life before starting NS. You story about how your employer's daughter got PR pretty much means the son can get PR even if unregistered at birth, which was my question as the dateline for registering as a SC by descent is within 1 year of the birth. I am not going to go back there and then keep him as a foreigner and pay extra fees for everything like education, healthcare, etc...
Unsure as I believe if you hold Singapore Citizenship, you cannot obtain Malaysian citizenship. I don't think the opposite is true however. So if you got his Singapore Citizenship first, that has pretty much put paid to getting Msian one. Sadly, I don't have anything to quote from at the moment.
My daughter got UK, SG and MY citizenship, in that order. Key to to apply for MY citizenship is to present at JPN as an UK citizen only. Of course this will only work if the person had a citizenship by birth that is not SG.
So my question still stands, if both SG and MY citizen by descent, and both countries called up the same person for NS at the same time, what then?
If you insist that this is not possible, then lets change MY to another country that has NS, like say, KR or TW, both of these countries allow dual citizenship and have NS. It is perfectly possible for a 16 1/2 years old male to be both aa SG and TW/KR citizen at the same time and to be called up for NS at the same time. What happens then?
No you are not doing anything illegal (strictly speaking) but you are trying to circumvent Singapore's laws (Not saying they are right or wrong) and you could, like my boss, screw your son's future as you do not know where he will end up or who he will be working for and then what happens when a huge promotion is dangled in front of him but he needs to to an overseas assignment for 2 years with the company's branch in Singapore. As you all like to say...die-die
Please. Think. Very. Carefully.
However having served NS and serving time in DB, I had learnt 2 important SAF rules, which are important lessons for the rest of my life:
1. Do anything you like but don't get caught
2. If you get caught, can you afford what you will lose? (not necessary money)
I did say NS is great didn't I?
As for any future son(s), based on your and MS's replies, the best way forward is not to register as a SG by descent but let him apply as a WP/EP/PR/FT/new citizen in his adult life if he choose to.