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rejecting new PR contract... what next?

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casey5047
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rejecting new PR contract... what next?

Postby casey5047 » Thu, 31 Aug 2017 11:48 pm

Hello all,

I'm a long time lurker here. I'd be grateful for any advice / insights on my current situation (I've searched but haven't found any answers in previous posts).

I'm currently on an employment pass. I've had my PR application accepted in principle, and my employer has shown me the new contract that I'll be offered when it's all official. I was realistic and expected to lose certain benefits (return flights home, housing allowance, etc), but the new contract goes beyond that - I can't go into details for obvious reasons - and I'm unwilling to sign it. I don't think negotiations will be fruitful for various reasons.

I think this company is slowly dying anyway (the new contract is likely a product of counter-productive cost-cutting), and there are plenty of slightly better opportunities elsewhere.

So I was wondering what happens in this situation, if I don't sign the new contract?

Once you become PR, does your old employment contract become automatically null and void (so if you don't sign a new one, you're immediately out of a job because there's no old contract anymore to fall back on)?

Does your old employment contract continue to stand, even though it doesn't mention CPF and Medisave, etc (so if I don't sign a new one, the old one will still apply - and they will likely then give me the standard 2 months notice)?

Thanks a lot for any help! It's much appreciated,

Casey

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ecureilx
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Re: rejecting new PR contract... what next?

Postby ecureilx » Fri, 01 Sep 2017 2:37 am

casey5047 wrote:Hello all,

I'm a long time lurker here. I'd be grateful for any advice / insights on my current situation (I've searched but haven't found any answers in previous posts).

I'm currently on an employment pass. I've had my PR application accepted in principle, and my employer has shown me the new contract that I'll be offered when it's all official. I was realistic and expected to lose certain benefits (return flights home, housing allowance, etc), but the new contract goes beyond that - I can't go into details for obvious reasons - and I'm unwilling to sign it. I don't think negotiations will be fruitful for various reasons.

I think this company is slowly dying anyway (the new contract is likely a product of counter-productive cost-cutting), and there are plenty of slightly better opportunities elsewhere.

So I was wondering what happens in this situation, if I don't sign the new contract?

Once you become PR, does your old employment contract become automatically null and void (so if you don't sign a new one, you're immediately out of a job because there's no old contract anymore to fall back on)?

Does your old employment contract continue to stand, even though it doesn't mention CPF and Medisave, etc (so if I don't sign a new one, the old one will still apply - and they will likely then give me the standard 2 months notice)?

Thanks a lot for any help! It's much appreciated,

Casey
Your old contact remains but the employer can with due notice inform you of your loss of privileges which you enjoyed as a EP holder..

Once you are a PR you and your employer must pay CPF

If you hate your company so much why do you want to stick around?

Just a curious question.

And you didn't know most employers revoke the privileges you are afforded as a EP holder, once you become PR?

And don't tell me you didn't know you have to contribute to CPF,

casey5047
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Re: rejecting new PR contract... what next?

Postby casey5047 » Fri, 01 Sep 2017 11:17 am

Thanks! That's what I'm curious about - how long the due notice needs to be? There's nothing in my (old) contract covering it, and I can't see anything on the Ministry of Manpower website.

'If you hate your company so much why do you want to stick around? '


I won't be sticking around in this job. I'm more wondering whether by not signing a new contract, I will automatically be out of a job (as the old contract will no longer be applicable) or the old contract will still be applicable, and my employer - not wanting to pay everything in my old contract, and CPF and Medisave, etc, on top (which is entirely reasonable) - will ask me to leave (which means the usual 2 months notice)?

And you didn't know most employers revoke the privileges you are afforded as a EP holder, once you become PR?


I did type this:
'I was realistic and expected to lose certain benefits (return flights home, housing allowance, etc...'

So I don't know why you've jumped to that conclusion. The issue is that they're taking away many more things than those, in an opportunistic cost-cutting exercise.

And don't tell me you didn't know you have to contribute to CPF,


As I named CPF and Medisave in my original post, I don't know why you've assumed I don't know what either of them is, or how they work.

I'm grateful for your initial reply, but please don't be the forum's schoolmarm, so eager to chastise people for their (presumed) expat naivety and expat entitlement that you miss the obvious / jump to unlikely conclusions.

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ecureilx
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Re: rejecting new PR contract... what next?

Postby ecureilx » Fri, 01 Sep 2017 11:27 am

casey5047 wrote:Thanks! That's what I'm curious about - how long the due notice needs to be? There's nothing in my (old) contract covering it, and I can't see anything on the Ministry of Manpower website.

'If you hate your company so much why do you want to stick around? '


I won't be sticking around in this job. I'm more wondering whether by not signing a new contract, I will automatically be out of a job (as the old contract will no longer be applicable) or the old contract will still be applicable, and my employer - not wanting to pay everything in my old contract, and CPF and Medisave, etc, on top (which is entirely reasonable) - will ask me to leave (which means the usual 2 months notice)?

And you didn't know most employers revoke the privileges you are afforded as a EP holder, once you become PR?


I did type this:
'I was realistic and expected to lose certain benefits (return flights home, housing allowance, etc...'

So I don't know why you've jumped to that conclusion. The issue is that they're taking away many more things than those, in an opportunistic cost-cutting exercise.

And don't tell me you didn't know you have to contribute to CPF,


As I named CPF and Medisave in my original post, I don't know why you've assumed I don't know what either of them is, or how they work.

I'm grateful for your initial reply, but please don't be the forum's schoolmarm, so eager to chastise people for their (presumed) expat naivety and expat entitlement that you miss the obvious / jump to unlikely conclusions.
Boy do I now hate myself for having taken time to reply to you

Especially after a few Tigers..

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Re: rejecting new PR contract... what next?

Postby PNGMK » Fri, 01 Sep 2017 7:52 pm

You're now a local (if PR). The standard benefits are;

pay (with 13 month maybe).
CPF (ER)
maybe insurance
maybe transport allowance.

Nothing else.
I have gay, black, Asian friends and then JR8.

casey5047
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Re: rejecting new PR contract... what next?

Postby casey5047 » Fri, 01 Sep 2017 7:57 pm

Nothing that I said was wrong though: you didn't read the post properly because you was too eager to hector me (hoping I was the uninformed, naive and entitled expat bogeyman that you enjoy bringing down a peg, making you feel like an enlightened expat superstar).

Enjoy the Tigers..

casey5047
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Re: rejecting new PR contract... what next?

Postby casey5047 » Fri, 01 Sep 2017 7:59 pm

PNGMK wrote:You're now a local (if PR). The standard benefits are;

pay (with 13 month maybe).
CPF (ER)
maybe insurance
maybe transport allowance.

Nothing else.


Thanks, PNDMK. I'm more wondering about the contract situation though...

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ecureilx
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Re: rejecting new PR contract... what next?

Postby ecureilx » Fri, 01 Sep 2017 8:20 pm

casey5047 wrote:Nothing that I said was wrong though: you didn't read the post properly because you was too eager to hector me (hoping I was the uninformed, naive and entitled expat bogeyman that you enjoy bringing down a peg, making you feel like an enlightened expat superstar).

Enjoy the Tigers..
Wrong in your deduction of my intentions.

If I had any malice I won't have replied to you in the first place, and I don't get any high by riling up you or anybody for that matter.

Not gonna explain anymore why you don't have a case here.

Good luck.

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Re: rejecting new PR contract... what next?

Postby PNGMK » Fri, 01 Sep 2017 8:51 pm

casey5047 wrote:
PNGMK wrote:You're now a local (if PR). The standard benefits are;

pay (with 13 month maybe).
CPF (ER)
maybe insurance
maybe transport allowance.

Nothing else.


Thanks, PNDMK. I'm more wondering about the contract situation though...


Most contract have a notice period for termination. You've been given a notice period that the contract is to be terminated and an offer of a new contract. You can try to negotiate terms in the new contract.

There is really very little labour law that applies here.
I have gay, black, Asian friends and then JR8.

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Re: rejecting new PR contract... what next?

Postby Strong Eagle » Fri, 01 Sep 2017 9:14 pm

casey5047 wrote:
PNGMK wrote:You're now a local (if PR). The standard benefits are;

pay (with 13 month maybe).
CPF (ER)
maybe insurance
maybe transport allowance.

Nothing else.


Thanks, PNDMK. I'm more wondering about the contract situation though...


You haven't told us enough about your existing contract for us to make any kind of a judgment of your best move. Here's a few questions.

  1. When did you sign your current employment contract?
  2. What was it's duration, ie, when would you have to sign another one to retain your current status?
  3. Is there anything in the contract that stipulates that the contract must be updated if there is a material change in circumstances?
  4. Was your employer aware of your application for PR and did you have conversations with them regarding contract changes?

And here's a few thoughts.

  1. An employment contract is like any other contract in that it is binding upon both parties. In the absence of language which would permit changes, it is binding on both parties until expiration, even if the circumstances of one or both parties changes. Example, you sign a two year lease. You lose your job and work permit. You are still liable for your lease unless you have escape language built in.
  2. Therefore, from a legal perspective, your employer must honor the terms of your existing contract through its expiry date, or they must terminate you according to the terms of the contract.
  3. Or, you must resign according to the terms of the existing contract.
  4. Or, you can mutually agree to terminate the existing contract and write a new contract reflective of your new status.
  5. Your employer must withhold your portion of CPF and pay their portion as well. It is quite common for newly minted PR's to sadly realize that the employer is not going to give them an additional kick by paying employer CPF on top of their salary but rather deduct it from existing salary. Unless there is specific language dealing with the CPF situation, your only recourse would be the courts.

The bottom line then is:

  1. You have a current employment contract, which is enforceable in a court of law, both by you, and by the employer. Whether you or the employer would want to resort to the courts for resolution of this dispute is beyond the scope of this discussion but that is an option with potential benefits and plenty of drawbacks as well.
  2. The employer paid CPF is going to come straight out of your existing salary, and again, unless you are going to go to court, you are going to live with this fact.
  3. If you are not going to sign the new contract, then you leave your employer little choice but to terminate you per the conditions in your existing contract because they obviously don't want to keep you on expat terms now that you are a PR. Singapore is pretty much a "employment at will" country so you will be very hard pressed to mount a case that your termination was unwarranted.
  4. Another option is to resign under the conditions stipulated in your current employment contract. You can also attempt to negotiate better terms of resignation from your employer if you think they would be happy to see you go.
  5. Your last option is to negotiate the best new contract you can, particularly its terms of resignation. Then sign it, then resign under the new terms found in the new contract.

That's really all that is available to you. There are no magic bullets and no alternatives. Work under a new contract (and maybe resign), resign or be terminated under the old contract. Have I missed something?

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Re: rejecting new PR contract... what next?

Postby x9200 » Fri, 01 Sep 2017 9:52 pm

casey5047 wrote:Hello all,

I'm a long time lurker here. I'd be grateful for any advice / insights on my current situation (I've searched but haven't found any answers in previous posts).

I'm currently on an employment pass. I've had my PR application accepted in principle, and my employer has shown me the new contract that I'll be offered when it's all official. I was realistic and expected to lose certain benefits (return flights home, housing allowance, etc), but the new contract goes beyond that - I can't go into details for obvious reasons - and I'm unwilling to sign it. I don't think negotiations will be fruitful for various reasons.

I think this company is slowly dying anyway (the new contract is likely a product of counter-productive cost-cutting), and there are plenty of slightly better opportunities elsewhere.

So I was wondering what happens in this situation, if I don't sign the new contract?

Once you become PR, does your old employment contract become automatically null and void (so if you don't sign a new one, you're immediately out of a job because there's no old contract anymore to fall back on)?

Does your old employment contract continue to stand, even though it doesn't mention CPF and Medisave, etc (so if I don't sign a new one, the old one will still apply - and they will likely then give me the standard 2 months notice)?

Thanks a lot for any help! It's much appreciated,

Casey

Of course the old (current) contract remains valid.

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ecureilx
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Re: rejecting new PR contract... what next?

Postby ecureilx » Fri, 01 Sep 2017 10:26 pm

..

casey5047
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Re: rejecting new PR contract... what next?

Postby casey5047 » Sat, 02 Sep 2017 11:24 pm

Strong Eagle wrote:
casey5047 wrote:
PNGMK wrote:You're now a local (if PR). The standard benefits are;

pay (with 13 month maybe).
CPF (ER)
maybe insurance
maybe transport allowance.

Nothing else.


Thanks, PNDMK. I'm more wondering about the contract situation though...


You haven't told us enough about your existing contract for us to make any kind of a judgment of your best move. Here's a few questions.

  1. When did you sign your current employment contract?
  2. What was it's duration, ie, when would you have to sign another one to retain your current status?
  3. Is there anything in the contract that stipulates that the contract must be updated if there is a material change in circumstances?
  4. Was your employer aware of your application for PR and did you have conversations with them regarding contract changes?

And here's a few thoughts.

  1. An employment contract is like any other contract in that it is binding upon both parties. In the absence of language which would permit changes, it is binding on both parties until expiration, even if the circumstances of one or both parties changes. Example, you sign a two year lease. You lose your job and work permit. You are still liable for your lease unless you have escape language built in.
  2. Therefore, from a legal perspective, your employer must honor the terms of your existing contract through its expiry date, or they must terminate you according to the terms of the contract.
  3. Or, you must resign according to the terms of the existing contract.
  4. Or, you can mutually agree to terminate the existing contract and write a new contract reflective of your new status.
  5. Your employer must withhold your portion of CPF and pay their portion as well. It is quite common for newly minted PR's to sadly realize that the employer is not going to give them an additional kick by paying employer CPF on top of their salary but rather deduct it from existing salary. Unless there is specific language dealing with the CPF situation, your only recourse would be the courts.

The bottom line then is:

  1. You have a current employment contract, which is enforceable in a court of law, both by you, and by the employer. Whether you or the employer would want to resort to the courts for resolution of this dispute is beyond the scope of this discussion but that is an option with potential benefits and plenty of drawbacks as well.
  2. The employer paid CPF is going to come straight out of your existing salary, and again, unless you are going to go to court, you are going to live with this fact.
  3. If you are not going to sign the new contract, then you leave your employer little choice but to terminate you per the conditions in your existing contract because they obviously don't want to keep you on expat terms now that you are a PR. Singapore is pretty much a "employment at will" country so you will be very hard pressed to mount a case that your termination was unwarranted.
  4. Another option is to resign under the conditions stipulated in your current employment contract. You can also attempt to negotiate better terms of resignation from your employer if you think they would be happy to see you go.
  5. Your last option is to negotiate the best new contract you can, particularly its terms of resignation. Then sign it, then resign under the new terms found in the new contract.

That's really all that is available to you. There are no magic bullets and no alternatives. Work under a new contract (and maybe resign), resign or be terminated under the old contract. Have I missed something?


I'm genuinely very grateful for that, Strong Eagle. This has answered my questions and put my mind at rest.

I think you've covered everything, but I'll just add: I signed my contract a year ago, and it has another year to run. There's absolutely nothing in the contract that refers to this situation. My old manager was aware of my application and supportive (note: I've applied through marriage, for the sake of my future children's future - not for work-related reasons, though their initial support was nice).

Now that manager has left, and not been replaced, and the majority owner of the company (who hasn't been involved in day-to-day operations, ever, with them knowing nothing about the industry but being very rich) has decided to be the default manager. It's sort of like watching a grizzly bear take over an antique shop specialising in Ming vases. Their first mission was to cut costs as soon as possible, despite this being severely counter-productive. My change of status has presented them with an opportunity to offer me a new contract that not only removes the usual expat privileges (entirely expected and entirely reasonable), but smuggle in numerous other unjustifiable cuts, which they don't even try to justify. I think it's blatant opportunism, but it feels like a 'freak you.' I'll happily leave (eventually), but I suppose what I've been seeking is information on the relevance of my current (soon to be old) contract to negotiate leaving. Luckily you've provided that information and more.

Thanks again, and have a good weekend!


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