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Please Help.

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cdnsing1
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Please Help.

Postby cdnsing1 » Mon, 27 Feb 2017 10:26 am

Hi,

I've read through quite a few posts here, although not all of them yet about the process of renunciation in Singapore.

I started this process about a month ago, because like a lot of people here, I have family in Singapore that I have not seen in over 25 years. I understand there are a lot of posts and I am trying to educate myself but I was hoping if somebody could guide me along.

I contacted the Singapore Embassy and got the paper work for renunciation. I filled out the paper work, and also contacted ICA themselves separately about the process.

ICA stated I should contact Central Manpower Base - of which I did but I received some really vague e-mails from the enlistment inspector. The inspector told me that I would be charged with violating the Enlistment Act (3 years jail, $10,000 fine) - this is where I'm currently stuck at.

I'm not 100% where to go from here as I still have to wait for the response from the Central Manpower Base and the Singapore Embassy but I'm a bit frustrated about my situation.

Any help would be most appreciated.

Thanks.
Last edited by cdnsing1 on Tue, 28 Feb 2017 11:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

PNGMK
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Re: Please Help.

Postby PNGMK » Mon, 27 Feb 2017 10:30 am

There's nothing you can do from overseas as far as we know. In your particular situation because your parents did not follow procedure and inform CMPB of their intention for you to renounce SC prior to you turning 13 you will be treated as an absconder. I imagine the only way forward is to come back into Singapore, be arrested, court martialied and then and pay a fine. I think in your case you can present a good case for being let off with only a fine as you really have been outside most of your life; ignorance however is not a defense. Once that is resolved then I believe CMPB will release your case and the ICA will allow renunciation to happen. Note that at this point I don't believe ICA (or the Singapore overseas mission) will allow or accept your renunciation.
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Re: Please Help.

Postby taxico » Mon, 27 Feb 2017 10:53 am

cdnsing1 wrote:...I fully accept that I will probably have to pay a fine - of which I couldn't agree more - but being jailed for 3 years considering I'm not a criminal seems rather steep.

I'm not 100% where to go from here as I still have to wait for the response from the Central Manpower Base and the Singapore Embassy but I'm a bit frustrated about my situation...


you flouted the law (knowingly or not), so if you went to court, you'd be found guilty. a fine is a must. jail, when imposed, is exactly because you're a criminal.

CMPB will likely tell you to head to singapore to resolve it in person. question is, in light of all the above, will you?

if you won't, then you just need to never land in or transit through (or be re-routed to) singapore.
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cdnsing1
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Re: Please Help.

Postby cdnsing1 » Mon, 27 Feb 2017 11:48 am

Thanks for the replies.

Does anybody know what the process is like if I do decide to return? I was given a name of a supervisor and to contact him about my travel arrangements. Would I be arrested at the airport if I made arrangements ahead of time? Lastly does anybody know how long this would take from landing in Singapore to actually having this matter resolved?

Thank you again.

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Re: Please Help.

Postby PNGMK » Mon, 27 Feb 2017 12:29 pm

cdnsing1 wrote:Thanks for the replies.

Does anybody know what the process is like if I do decide to return? I was given a name of a supervisor and to contact him about my travel arrangements. Would I be arrested at the airport if I made arrangements ahead of time? Lastly does anybody know how long this would take from landing in Singapore to actually having this matter resolved?

Thank you again.

1. Yes - provost marshall will take you in to custody (the brig). You will be court martialled almost immediately I believe. My friend who was caught years ago says it was all over in a few days - except of course he had to serve NS as he was young enough.
2. Based on media report it seems to be fast (if no jail time is involved). However if your'e trying to plan it exactly I don't think that's possible.
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Re: Please Help.

Postby cdnsing1 » Mon, 27 Feb 2017 12:48 pm

PNGMK wrote:
cdnsing1 wrote:Thanks for the replies.

Does anybody know what the process is like if I do decide to return? I was given a name of a supervisor and to contact him about my travel arrangements. Would I be arrested at the airport if I made arrangements ahead of time? Lastly does anybody know how long this would take from landing in Singapore to actually having this matter resolved?

Thank you again.

1. Yes - provost marshall will take you in to custody (the brig). You will be court martialled almost immediately I believe. My friend who was caught years ago says it was all over in a few days - except of course he had to serve NS as he was young enough.
2. Based on media report it seems to be fast (if no jail time is involved). However if your'e trying to plan it exactly I don't think that's possible.


Hey,

I really appreciate the information. I'm debating whether or not to return at this point, but I am leaning towards returning.

I will try to limit what I ask, although it seems like I have more questions by the minute sometimes.

1. When you say "the brig" I assume you mean an actual jail cell?

2. Do I stay in this jail cell for duration of this time until I can see a judge?

3. I fully expect things to take a bit of time,but the prospect of sitting in a jail cell is daunting. I'm in my early 30's, so my concern is that I'm technically still "young" enough - I can't give up my life in Canada on the off chance that they do force me to do National Service.

Thanks.

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Re: Please Help.

Postby PNGMK » Mon, 27 Feb 2017 1:10 pm

I can't recall the cut off age for NS. Google should be able to tell you. Brig is a jail cell. I can't recall if you can post bail and get out but I doubt it.
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Re: Please Help.

Postby cdnsing1 » Mon, 27 Feb 2017 1:44 pm

PNGMK wrote:I can't recall the cut off age for NS. Google should be able to tell you. Brig is a jail cell. I can't recall if you can post bail and get out but I doubt it.


I'm in my early 30's, so I doubt I would quality of the cut off age.

I'm awaiting to hear back from another person I was referred to at the CMPB on where to go from here.

It just seems like a lot of work to do to visit Singapore, but I understand that I can't change anything else at this point.

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Re: Please Help.

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Mon, 27 Feb 2017 1:58 pm

While I'm not an advocate of the following, an alternative, if you are just wishing to visit rellies is to book a hotel in JB across the causeway and have them come over to JB rather than you going into SG and not being able to get back out.

cdnsing1
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Re: Please Help.

Postby cdnsing1 » Mon, 27 Feb 2017 2:49 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:While I'm not an advocate of the following, an alternative, if you are just wishing to visit rellies is to book a hotel in JB across the causeway and have them come over to JB rather than you going into SG and not being able to get back out.


Yes, that is something I was considering as well.

However, I would like to visit Singapore itself as it's been an extremely long time since I have been here.

Thanks for the advice though.

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Re: Please Help.

Postby taxico » Mon, 27 Feb 2017 4:04 pm

cdnsing1 wrote:1. When you say "the brig" I assume you mean an actual jail cell?

2. Do I stay in this jail cell for duration of this time until I can see a judge?

3. I fully expect things to take a bit of time,but the prospect of sitting in a jail cell is daunting. I'm in my early 30's, so my concern is that I'm technically still "young" enough - I can't give up my life in Canada on the off chance that they do force me to do National Service.


you'll be placed under arrest upon arrival at the airport. some times closer to the plane, other times at passport control.

you will be detained in a holding cell at the airport, pending a transfer to jail. in singapore, you do not (necessarily) need to see a judge to get bail.

if you have no one to post bail and act as sureties for you, you will be detained throughout. you will be escorted to the various places you need to go to.

you should expect your passport to be impounded if you are released on bail. you can't wander the streets if you're on bail.

i expect it may take at least a month or two if you do not have to serve NS - some times the courts can get backed up.

the procedure may have changed by now, but for sure you will feel embarrassed at the airport. but the longer you delay a resolution, the longer the sentence will be if you are caught in future...
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Re: Please Help.

Postby cdnsing1 » Mon, 27 Feb 2017 4:54 pm

taxico wrote:
cdnsing1 wrote:1. When you say "the brig" I assume you mean an actual jail cell?

2. Do I stay in this jail cell for duration of this time until I can see a judge?

3. I fully expect things to take a bit of time,but the prospect of sitting in a jail cell is daunting. I'm in my early 30's, so my concern is that I'm technically still "young" enough - I can't give up my life in Canada on the off chance that they do force me to do National Service.


you'll be placed under arrest upon arrival at the airport. some times closer to the plane, other times at passport control.

you will be detained in a holding cell at the airport, pending a transfer to jail. in singapore, you do not (necessarily) need to see a judge to get bail.

if you have no one to post bail and act as sureties for you, you will be detained throughout. you will be escorted to the various places you need to go to.

you should expect your passport to be impounded if you are released on bail. you can't wander the streets if you're on bail.

i expect it may take at least a month or two if you do not have to serve NS - some times the courts can get backed up.

the procedure may have changed by now, but for sure you will feel embarrassed at the airport. but the longer you delay a resolution, the longer the sentence will be if you are caught in future...


Thanks for the info.

If anything I'll be returning on a Canadian passport as I'm not 100% sure where my Singapore passport is and it is probably long expired as well. I forgot to mention, if it's not clear that I'm a Canadian citizen as well if that matters.

If I do return, it'll probably be with a family member - so I think getting bail (if it's possible) shouldn't be an issue.

Your information seems to be good, do you have experience with situations like mine?

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Re: RE: Re: Please Help.

Postby ecureilx » Mon, 27 Feb 2017 5:28 pm

taxico wrote:you will be detained in a holding cell at the airport, pending a transfer to jail. in singapore, you do not (necessarily) need to see a judge to get bail.


do military courts allow bail? I thought it was in custody till brought in front of the Judge.

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Re: RE: Re: Please Help.

Postby taxico » Mon, 27 Feb 2017 10:25 pm

ecureilx wrote:
taxico wrote:you will be detained in a holding cell at the airport, pending a transfer to jail. in singapore, you do not (necessarily) need to see a judge to get bail.


do military courts allow bail? I thought it was in custody till brought in front of the Judge.


although a general court martial is presided by a judge, he will not be court martialed as he's not enlisted yet.

he will have to ultimately stand trial at the sub court. he could be granted bail before then. how he manages that... is entirely for him to plead to the officer(s) in charge.

iirc, he will need more than 1 person to vouch for him. i'll add on here if anything comes to mind... fuzzy memories.

p/s: i now recall that i enlisted army BMT with a lot of dual-citizen conscripts - a few (not in my platoon) were over 25 years old. i remember there was a really old accountant that looked like he was in his 30s but was 27, and another IT guy who was 25 or 26.

there were a few more older looking gents, who kept mostly to themselves/very quiet about their lives then... they certainly sounded non-singlish and quite morose to me.

the word at the time was that their arrangement with CMPB: in lieu of being charged in court as a defaulter when they returned to SG, they serve NS and then make a decision on which passport to keep.

none of them went on to OCS so i didn't know them as well as i wanted to. i was still hitting the books when i was in BMT.

in my platoon there were probably about 8 or so dual citizens spread over 4 sections. in my section were 2. an aussie and me. i was in the army ROTC before i enlisted for NS and the two of us bonded (we were BMT buddies) and made it to OCS together.

today, i'm not entirely clear how much weight CMPB has over these cases since MINDEF officially/publicly changed their stance on defaulters being punished in court.
Last edited by taxico on Mon, 27 Feb 2017 11:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Please Help.

Postby taxico » Mon, 27 Feb 2017 10:57 pm

cdnsing1 wrote:If anything I'll be returning on a Canadian passport as I'm not 100% sure where my Singapore passport is and it is probably long expired as well. I forgot to mention, if it's not clear that I'm a Canadian citizen as well if that matters.

If I do return, it'll probably be with a family member - so I think getting bail (if it's possible) shouldn't be an issue.

Your information seems to be good, do you have experience with situations like mine?


i don't know what you mean by "it's not clear that i'm a CA citizen as well..."

if you don't want to be humiliated at the airport, you can try returning to SG with your CA passport without notifying CMPB (you may not be arrested at the airport), then surrender yourself to a police station near wherever you're staying at. you'll still be cuffed and locked up, but it's more discreet.

however... if you do decide to return, please make sure you know what you're in for. no backsies once you're in singapore... i don't know if the systems that exist may decide to bar your exit if you change your mind.

i hear stories about these situations when i was serving NS in singapore. during my time, it was our opinion that they try to clot NSFs with 2 passports in a few intake btches instead of spreading them loosely throughout the year.

after OCS in singapore, i also got to know fellow officers that had a sprinkle of such soldiers serving under them, and the trouble some of them can bring. none of these experiences are uniquely mine, so take away from it what you will.

iirc... during my time, the MPs will release the arrested defaulters that return voluntarily for enlistment. they were not processed into SAFDB.
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