Ex-citizen male, can stay in Singapore?

[PNGMK]

I don't think anyone here has a crystal ball and real insight apart from MS and some of the long termers like myself who only have anecdotes. Let us know how it works out for you please.

[johnsmith1234]

That's cool, I'm not looking for a crystal ball. More anecdotes are perfect

[taxico]

I'm very interested in what people here have to say but further elaboration would help a lot. For example, some of the answers I'm looking for are:

-Rules have tightened further since 2012. That ex-PR guy wouldn't stand a chance now.
AND/OR:
-An ex-citizen by birth is screwed no matter what because [insert reason]. However, the ex-PR who renounced in late teens had a chance because [insert reason]. Similarly, the ex-citizen by descent had a chance because [insert reason].

at the end of the day, your position may be you left when you were a baby and you had no intention of ever coming back. but have you considered how it may appear to ICA?

it's already been said... those who gave up SC/SPR to avoid NS are never allowed to work/live in singapore. this is the public stance of the government.

so logically NS is key. and you have not served it. realistically speaking, you shouldn't be allowed back because you did not renounce when you were a baby, but when you were in your 20s.

in the eyes of ICA, could you be more culpable than the 15-year old SPR who left singapore due to the entire family re-locating?

while i suppose someone has mentioned that you would likely qualify for an LTVP/+ simply because you have been away since you were a baby (and likely no NRIC/passport/school+healthcare subsidies) - and this info ICA would likely have on file when considering your application and it sure might make for a compelling case when you explain it in a way that it seemed the correct thing to do at the time.

but whether or not you're making a return to singapore in your 30s would smell like a crafty way of avoiding NS, i'm not sure...

it does bear a whiff of it though, especially since you're married to a singaporean - for at least a few years now. you KNEW a return to singapore was likely...

(the same way that because i'm married to a south korean national, i would think at some point it would be likely i may have to sleep on a hot hard floor there for more than 90 days at a stretch, and killing my hips and back in the process... because the wife has talked to me about this before, saying that applying for residency may take a while if, say, something happened to her parents, etc... we should be prepared, etc... EVEN BEFORE WE WERE MARRIED!)

now, if you've had a few kids that were also singaporean because you and your wife elected to notify the singapore embassy about it, i suppose it would signify you are more than genuine about your intent to re-settle in singapore.

since you're unable to serve NS in your current status, what else do you have to show for? (beyond your righteous "i was away as a baby" excuse and "now i want to get all the anecdotes i can find to rigorously defend my position" attitude)

i suspect Scientist and PNG are right - you won't get it any sort of permit approved. at least not now.

but if you don't try, you'd never know.

so like i originally asked - have you applied for any, yet?

[PNGMK]

OP - don't get twitter and bisted. We've seen more than a handful of ex Singaporean's on this board who seem to take it out on us. We are mostly NOT Singapore Citizens and live in Singapore at the behest of the government and her immigration policies executed via ICA and MOM which; when you think about it; is your exact same problem. We try to stare through the mist and anecdotes and actual information and MASSES of dis-information perpetuated by well meaning but ill informed Singaporeans and ex Singaporeans and their families to discerne the hard kernels of actual truth and policy. The very few public documents released on this matter CAN be read between the lines along with the Melvin Tan court cases etc and that does help. I have read nothing but SHITE on the /r/Singapore reddit about these cases for example - so many willing but ill informed and optimistic commentators misleading and building hope where we so often know there is almost no hope - which is where you are unfortunately.

[johnsmith1234]

at the end of the day, your position may be you left when you were a baby and you had no intention of ever coming back. but have you considered how it may appear to ICA?

Yes, that's why I started this thread.

it's already been said... those who gave up SC/SPR to avoid NS are never allowed to work/live in singapore. this is the public stance of the government.

Once my parents committed to their new country that I was to grow up in, it was basically inevitable that I'd have to give up my Singapore citizenship one day, given Singapore law on dual citizenship.

If the "to avoid NS" part is crucial and if all cases like mine are viewed as cases of primarily wanting to avoid NS then yes I've got no chance.

so logically NS is key. and you have not served it. realistically speaking, you shouldn't be allowed back because you did not renounce when you were a baby, but when you were in your 20s.

I was a dual citizen from the age of 6. However, you can only renounce at age 21. The intention to renounce was made in writing when I was in my early teens (in line with protocol at the time). I'm starting to wonder if I would have even been allowed to serve NS once the intention was communicated.

in the eyes of ICA, could you be more culpable than the 15-year old SPR who left singapore due to the entire family re-locating?

Yeah I guess I'm culpable if mine is viewed as a case of primarily wanting to avoid NS.

while i suppose someone has mentioned that you would likely qualify for an LTVP/+ simply because you have been away since you were a baby (and likely no NRIC/passport/school+healthcare subsidies) - and this info ICA would likely have on file when considering your application and it sure might make for a compelling case when you explain it in a way that it seemed the correct thing to do at the time.

Noted - I should explain my case but yes I understand it doesn't guarantee anything.

but whether or not you're making a return to singapore in your 30s would smell like a crafty way of avoiding NS, i'm not sure...

it does bear a whiff of it though, especially since you're married to a singaporean - for at least a few years now. you KNEW a return to singapore was likely...

A master plan 30 years in the making. Don't tell my wife. Unless she's in on it too of course.

(the same way that because i'm married to a south korean national, i would think at some point it would be likely i may have to sleep on a hot hard floor there for more than 90 days at a stretch, and killing my hips and back in the process... because the wife has talked to me about this before, saying that applying for residency may take a while if, say, something happened to her parents, etc... we should be prepared, etc... EVEN BEFORE WE WERE MARRIED!)

Sure, I thought about moving to Singapore after meeting my Singaporean wife in my late twenties. Not at all before that. After about three years of marriage, we're starting to give it serious consideration. Nothing too controversial about this I would have thought.

now, if you've had a few kids that were also singaporean because you and your wife elected to notify the singapore embassy about it, i suppose it would signify you are more than genuine about your intent to re-settle in singapore.

I have an infant son. He is a Singapore Citizen by descent. Doesn't sound like it makes an ounce of difference for my case though.

since you're unable to serve NS in your current status, what else do you have to show for? (beyond your righteous "i was away as a baby" excuse and "now i want to get all the anecdotes i can find to rigorously defend my position" attitude)

It's a historical, verifiable fact, not an excuse. It's not righteous to mention facts that might be relevant to the discussion. Regarding gathering anecdotes, I asked for similar successful and unsuccessful cases.

i suspect Scientist and PNG are right - you won't get it any sort of permit approved. at least not now.

but if you don't try, you'd never know.

Understood.

so like i originally asked - have you applied for any, yet?

No application at the moment.

@PNGMK - I'm not bitter and twisted, or taking anything out on anyone. Not sure why you think that. Just having a discussion, which is what a forum is for. Otherwise it's just a bunch of people patting each other on the back.

Anyway, I'll let you all know how I go. If anything, to keep as a reference for the next guy in a similar hopeless position.

[PNGMK]

Good luck OP.... to answer your question why we think you will blame us is it has happened before.... (i.e. we said it wouldn't happen therefore we must have influenced the ICA).

OP - additional edit - some of us (not all but enough to count), even though we are not citizens have children who have or will serve NS. We can be a little sensitive on the topic of men attempting to access SC as a man without bearing the burden our own sons carry (and this comes up most commonly with subconns who attempt to have their sons avoid NS and then wonder why their REP or SC application fails - not so much as returnees like yourself).

[taxico]

Once my parents committed to their new country that I was to grow up in, it was basically inevitable that I'd have to give up my Singapore citizenship one day, given Singapore law on dual citizenship.

i don't believe it was as helpless and hapless as you (still) believe.

If the "to avoid NS" part is crucial and if all cases like mine are viewed as cases of primarily wanting to avoid NS then yes I've got no chance.

Yeah I guess I'm culpable if mine is viewed as a case of primarily wanting to avoid NS.

it's not whether or not ICA views cases like your as primarily wanting to avoid NS... but whether or not it's reasonable for a layperson to believe it is the case. i think it might be "iffy."

A master plan 30 years in the making. Don't tell my wife. Unless she's in on it too of course.

and you think this is not possible...? why? would you be able to say the same for yourself + your child? (if he/she is a dual citizen)

I was a dual citizen from the age of 6. However, you can only renounce at age 21. The intention to renounce was made in writing when I was in my early teens (in line with protocol at the time). I'm starting to wonder if I would have even been allowed to serve NS once the intention was communicated.

yes, you are allowed to serve, except it would take a while longer to enlist. i know this because i served NS with someone who was still unsure about which citizenship to renounce.

he was incentivized by RSAF to give up his non-SG citizenship but eventually failed flight school in perth and was posted back to army. he decided to give up singapore citizenship after completing NS.

in my batch, there were quite a lot of dual citizenship holders as well as PRs from else where.

Sure, I thought about moving to Singapore after meeting my Singaporean wife in my late twenties. Not at all before that. After about three years of marriage, we're starting to give it serious consideration. Nothing too controversial about this I would have thought.

at that point, how did you think it would pan out? (as you say, for "discussions" purposes)

I have an infant son. He is a Singapore Citizen by descent. Doesn't sound like it makes an ounce of difference for my case though.

i would think having a singaporean wife and son would be helpful... unless you apply for your boy to be deferred from NS until he's 21 - before you've had a chance to get some sort pass/permit.

if he holds 2 citizenships, which i believe he does, i hope you give your son all the info your parents might/may have withheld from you.

it'll probably help him avoid the problems you now face, or at least allow him to make decisions that he can see the consequences of.

i wish you all the best in whatever application/appeal you make. keep trying and don't give up!

[Mad Scientist]

OP

That thread on the Ex-SC is borne overseas and acquired SG citizenship by descent and then gave it up for personal reason. The case officer had studied it and for reason beyond me approved it. I think he did not apply for SG PP. Hence gained employment here.
Not the same with you as you are borned here and left SG at 6
Your son will have the same or similar scenario as the above
For the EX - PR sorry I do not know

It all depends on your application submission and the case officer who handles the application.
The markers are all set and it depends on how they perceive on compassionate ground etc etc..
Like I said I have not come across anyone on the board like yours that managed to regain SG citizenship back or PR . LTVP not sure but as far as I know zero. I stand corrected but I am 99.99999999 %
Go ahead and apply and see how it turns out

[PNGMK]

EX PR have no problem getting work visas in Singapore in my experience. Obtaining PR / SC is another matter.