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Getting a new passport before issuance of Employment Pass

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Re: Getting a new passport before issuance of Employment Pass

Postby BBCWatcher » Thu, 25 Aug 2016 4:11 pm

SMS, are you sure your posts aren't generating their own private messages? ;)

....No, the simple fact is that a large number of posters to this forum are "challenged" in their English reading comprehension. It doesn't matter how many words I use or their grade level. There's frequently somebody reading below any level, unfortunately. :cry:

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Re: Getting a new passport before issuance of Employment Pass

Postby BBCWatcher » Thu, 25 Aug 2016 4:16 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:It also shows the writing comprehension is abysmal....

By the way, what you wrote is quite funny. [Hint: what's "writing comprehension"? ;)]

English. Ain't it fun? :D

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Re: RE: Re: Getting a new passport before issuance of Employment Pass

Postby BBCWatcher » Thu, 25 Aug 2016 4:23 pm

ecureilx wrote:Immigration is national security...

Great! And those countries that care about "national security" already do not rely on paper-based and/or offline processes at border crossings.

Let me repeat: Every process still works for passports that don't have paper pages attached to them, just as banking still works without old fashioned passbooks -- including paper-based banking processes. The only question, for some, is who supplies the paper. If the country that (allegedly) cares about national security is the one supplying the paper, that's more secure, not less!

And let's talk about that remote, disconnected border crossing once again. Take a look at this little gadget. It's been on the market for a few years now. For US$300 it's yours. It's rugged, solar chargeable, and sends and receives text messages from any location on Earth, including from the poles. And you don't have to use this gadget's own screen to tap out messages. A subscription with unlimited text messages costs $50/month. So...for a country that wants to connect a remote border crossing, allowing agents to text passport card details back to the central government, to get "admit" or "refuse entry" responses, it's not expensive. This is the most they have to pay, today, for basic online connectivity: a $300 gadget, and a $50/month subscription. So if a country wants to put a remote border crossing online, they can do it for a heck of a lot less than it costs to pay and equip an army, for example.

....But that's an option, not a requirement. It's a completely separate issue from whether passports need to have their own, attached, issuer-supplied paper pages. (They don't.) Countries can control (or not control) their borders however they wish today, and they can continue to control (or not control) their borders however they wish when passports become passport cards.

When every country during the 20th century relied on paper-based processes -- processes that have always had security weaknesses -- then it made sense for every passport to include paper pages. But that's not the 21st century. The paper records, if they even exist, are no longer authoritative. If you want to enter Country X, you need a visa, you have a paper visa (in or out of your passport -- doesn't matter), but Country X's database says you don't have a visa, you're not getting into Country X -- it's that simple. The database is boss in the 21st century. Yes, even for poor countries because databases aren't expensive any more, but paper is. Banks figured this stuff out a long time ago. Airlines (through IATA) figured it out a few years ago when electronic tickets became authoritative, worldwide, and paper tickets are no longer issued (with rare exceptions). If you have a printout of your e-ticket, that's all it is. The airline's database is authoritative. Passports are headed in the same direction: they'll lose their paper. Nobody who cares about national security trusts anything a passenger presents on paper, especially an ink blot. Think about that for even 30 seconds, and you might understand.

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Re: Getting a new passport before issuance of Employment Pass

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Thu, 25 Aug 2016 8:49 pm

BBCWatcher wrote:SMS, are you sure your posts aren't generating their own private messages? ;)

....No, the simple fact is that a large number of posters to this forum are "challenged" in their English reading comprehension. It doesn't matter how many words I use or their grade level. There's frequently somebody reading below any level, unfortunately. :cry:


If that's the case, then for everybody's ease, why don't you start using the KISS method of writing? That way you help the largest number of readers. Hmmm? #-o

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Re: Getting a new passport before issuance of Employment Pass

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Thu, 25 Aug 2016 8:53 pm

BBCWatcher wrote:
sundaymorningstaple wrote:It also shows the writing comprehension is abysmal....

By the way, what you wrote is quite funny. [Hint: what's "writing comprehension"? ;)]

English. Ain't it fun? :D


Sure is, especially if you look at it with flexibility. Writing Comprehension? Simple. It's when you write so you know you will reach the largest audience with their understanding. As it is now, you only write to please yourself and you assume you are helping all who may need help. But as you just admitted a lot of people on here have abysmal reading comprehension. If you know that, why are you excluding them?

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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Getting a new passport before issuance of Employment Pass

Postby ecureilx » Thu, 25 Aug 2016 8:56 pm

BBCWatcher wrote:
ecureilx wrote:Immigration is national security...

Great! And those countries that care about "national security" already do not rely on paper-based and/or offline processes at border crossings.


Firstly that wasn't addressed at you. It was for SF suggesting offline verification like CC.


And let's talk about that remote, disconnected border crossing once again. Take a look at this little gadget. It's been on the market for a few years now. For US$300 it's yours. It's rugged, solar chargeable, and sends and receives text messages from any location on Earth, including from the poles. And you don't have to use this gadget's own screen to tap out messages. A subscription with unlimited text messages costs $50/month. So...for a country that wants to connect a remote border crossing, allowing agents to text passport card details back to the central government, to get "admit" or "refuse entry" responses, it's not expensive. This is the most they have to pay, today, for basic online connectivity: a $300 gadget, and a $50/month subscription. So if a country wants to put a remote border crossing online, they can do it for a heck of a lot less than it costs to pay and equip an army, for example.


I know 3 Asian countries which were on 64/128 ISDN until recently... Yes. Its all peanuts for you, but not for struggling 3rd world countries... not gonna tell you why 300 $ is sky high..


The database is boss in the 21st century. Yes, even for poor countries because databases aren't expensive any more, but paper is. Banks figured this stuff out a long time ago


LOL
. Airlines (through IATA) figured it out a few years ago when electronic tickets became authoritative, worldwide, and paper tickets are no longer issued (with rare exceptions). If you have a printout of your e-ticket, that's all it is. The airline's database is authoritative.


More LOL
Passports are headed in the same direction: they'll lose their paper. Nobody who cares about national security trusts anything a passenger presents on paper, especially an ink blot. Think about that for even 30 seconds, and you might understand.


Yes, agreed ... point taken.

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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Getting a new passport before issuance of Employment Pass

Postby singaporeflyer » Thu, 25 Aug 2016 9:08 pm

ecureilx wrote:
Firstly that wasn't addressed at you. It was for SF suggesting offline verification like CC.


I wasn't trying to suggest offline verification. Was basically trying to ask BBC if immigration can be less stringent like CC verification :)

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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Getting a new passport before issuance of Employment Pass

Postby BBCWatcher » Thu, 25 Aug 2016 9:49 pm

singaporeflyer wrote:Was basically trying to ask BBC if immigration can be less stringent like CC verification :)

Sure, but your assumption is not correct. (We'll get to that in a moment.)

First of all, most of the world's borders are highly porous, and most governments don't care (or don't care enough). Even in the developed world. Nobody particularly cares if a Canadian hunter chases a deer into the United States or vice versa. There's even a town sitting right on the border, including the town library. (Some books are in Canada, and some are in the United States.) No, you don't need your passport to visit the whole library. More seriously, the country that spends the most on defense, the United States, still has about 500,000 people per year who stay in the United States who don't have the legal right to stay in the United States. The vast majority of them arrive in the United States legally, with proper documentation. Whether their passports have pages or not won't change that fact.

So let's take a look at how credit, debit, and prepaid cards are doing, to respond to your concern about those "lax" credit cards. According to the Nilson Report, total card purchases were US$28,884 billion in 2014. Total fraudulent charges amounted to a mere $16.31 billion. That's a total fraud loss rate of 0.056%. If borders were that secure on a global basis, or if illegal immigration were that low, the governments of the world would be absolutely thrilled.

However, we're comparing two different things here that really aren't directly comparable. A better comparison is with driving licenses, national ID cards, military IDs, and similar cards. So let's think about that for just a moment. Governments obviously do a lot of ID checking for very important reasons -- like access to military bases (and the dangerous weapons they hold). Is there any government that issues an ID booklet in such situations, with paper pages attached for stamping? I can't think of a recent example. World War II ration booklets, maybe, but that was in the early 1940s. So what security value do the paper pages attached to passports add? If those attached pages are so darn useful for security, why don't we see them attached to many forms of identification? Passports have been around a long time, so somebody by now should have seen the value in those paper pages if they add security value.

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Re: Getting a new passport before issuance of Employment Pass

Postby Strong Eagle » Thu, 25 Aug 2016 10:06 pm

This thread is titled, "Getting a new passport before issuance of Employment Pass" and BBCW has turned it into a semester long course on security. How bizarre.

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Re: Getting a new passport before issuance of Employment Pass

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Thu, 25 Aug 2016 10:39 pm

I used to think ksl was bad (R.I.P.), but he only got like that when he was on the Baron's @ 3 am. He was a good guy though, I miss him.

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Re: RE: Re: Getting a new passport before issuance of Employment Pass

Postby ecureilx » Thu, 25 Aug 2016 10:52 pm

Strong Eagle wrote:This thread is titled, "Getting a new passport before issuance of Employment Pass" and BBCW has turned it into a semester long course on security. How bizarre.

Open up your mind and learn something new .. even if it's irrelevant!




SMS, yeah, though I bumped into him just twice (and about his viniger ... ) he would have made great company now :)

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Re: Getting a new passport before issuance of Employment Pass

Postby NZinSG » Thu, 25 Aug 2016 10:55 pm

Strong Eagle wrote:This thread is titled, "Getting a new passport before issuance of Employment Pass" and BBCW has turned it into a semester long course on security. How bizarre.


To be fair, the thread question was answered. The rest is just extra board activity, which is (mostly) positive (boards lose users and appear empty if side coversations die out in threads).

Also, looking at your passport - holy crap, were you doing that just to see how large you could make it?

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Re: Getting a new passport before issuance of Employment Pass

Postby Strong Eagle » Fri, 26 Aug 2016 3:28 am

NZinSG wrote:Also, looking at your passport - holy crap, were you doing that just to see how large you could make it?


Sort of a contest... my business partner traveled frequently as well... always worth a comparison over a pint of Kilkenny at Penny Black.

But mostly, it was faster and cheaper than getting a new passport... while you wait at the embassy... 24 more pages... I forget how much but much less than a new passport.

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Re: RE: Re: Getting a new passport before issuance of Employment Pass

Postby x9200 » Fri, 26 Aug 2016 6:34 am

BBCWatcher wrote:
ecureilx wrote:Immigration is national security...

Great! And those countries that care about "national security" already do not rely on paper-based and/or offline processes at border crossings.


I am not sure if such passport card is needed. It has some very obvious limitations pointed out earlier so if you want to have the confidence in being able to travel to the less developed areas, you would still need to rely on the paper. For most people the paper passport is of the size they can accept and don't need to "top it up" with any extra pages. For short, cross-boarder trips, many developed countries already rely on national IDs cards. How such passport card would be electronically different from what is currently used in the biometric chips? I doubt storage of "electronic stamps" will get to it - too complex, too expensive and with limited practicality for the govs. - sorry, things like these you don't do based on cute electronic gadgets.

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Re: Getting a new passport before issuance of Employment Pass

Postby BBCWatcher » Fri, 26 Aug 2016 10:04 am

Strong Eagle wrote:But mostly, it was faster and cheaper than getting a new passport... while you wait at the embassy... 24 more pages... I forget how much but much less than a new passport.

Before July 13, 2010, U.S. embassies and consulates would add pages to a U.S. passport free of charge. You could add one or two sets of pages (24 blank pages per set) per visit, and the work was typically performed on the spot while the passport holder waited. From July 13, 2010, through December 31, 2015 (inclusive), the fee was US$82 to add 48 blank pages. That $82 fee was less than the cost of a new passport, but it wasn't much less -- and a new passport has a new expiration date. Starting on January 1, 2016, it is no longer possible to add pages to a U.S. passport.

U.S. passports are issued in so-called 28 page and 52 page versions (not all those pages are blank). The applicant can choose either version, and the fee is the same.


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