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Getting a new passport before issuance of Employment Pass

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Re: Getting a new passport before issuance of Employment Pass

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Wed, 24 Aug 2016 6:55 am

This is the way you got new pages before SE's. This back in the 1980's. Both sides of the foldouts are stamped.

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Re: Getting a new passport before issuance of Employment Pass

Postby BBCWatcher » Wed, 24 Aug 2016 10:05 am

I expect that at some point within the next few years the physical passports will at least lose their pages and devolve to smart cards and the smartphone-based equivalents. Much like bank passbooks have mostly been discontinued. Countries that want to issue paper stamps can still do that, but they'll have to issue their own stock, as with paper landing forms and customs declarations.

The U.K. is starting an experiment with virtual, smartphone-based driving licences [sic]. Many countries, including the U.S., already offer passport cards. Give it a few years and ICAO will probably agree on two new passport standards: smartcard ("mandatory" member acceptance) and virtual smartphone ("recommended" acceptance). Plus backend lookup protocols so transport companies can electronically check on visa permissions and such.

A prediction.

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Re: Getting a new passport before issuance of Employment Pass

Postby Strong Eagle » Wed, 24 Aug 2016 12:07 pm

^^^^^^^^

You obviously have never crossed borders at remote sites. No internet. No computers. Large ledgers. Lots of stamps.

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Re: Getting a new passport before issuance of Employment Pass

Postby BBCWatcher » Wed, 24 Aug 2016 7:35 pm

I have, and that's fine. As mentioned, if a country wants to hand out paper card stock to mark and to stamp however it wishes, it'll still be able to.

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Re: Getting a new passport before issuance of Employment Pass

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Wed, 24 Aug 2016 8:50 pm

No, they'll just refuse them entry to the country. Why should they cut down their trees to make bit of paper when the richer countries are more than capable of doing so. Otherwise, how are they going to impound your passport when you get drunk and beat up the taxi uncle. No, I reckon they'll give you an option or the ability to get a hardcopy passport if you tell them you will be going to 3rd world countries.

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Re: Getting a new passport before issuance of Employment Pass

Postby BBCWatcher » Wed, 24 Aug 2016 9:43 pm

It'll be up to ICAO (a part of the United Nations), and there will be plenty of advance notice. The consensus standards then get published in ICAO's Document 9303.

Any country can refuse entry, I suppose. Here's the problem with that: does that country want to refuse entry to everybody from ~200 countries all following ICAO (United Stations) standards? Hypothetically that's possible, but it "isn't good for business."

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Re: Getting a new passport before issuance of Employment Pass

Postby Strong Eagle » Wed, 24 Aug 2016 10:17 pm

BBCWatcher wrote:I have, and that's fine. As mentioned, if a country wants to hand out paper card stock to mark and to stamp however it wishes, it'll still be able to.


This comment is really stupid. Do you suppose that I should/would have the expectation that I would show up at a remote border crossing up in the mountains, between Laos and Vietnam, carrying my all electronic passport and expect THEM to supply me with the necessary materials to get into THEIR country?

And do you suppose that while I am in country in a small village and the local police chief and party officials show up to "check" my passport (aka, looking for a bribe) that they'll be carrying an electronic passport reader to check my stamps? Please... it's just stupid.

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Re: RE: Re: Getting a new passport before issuance of Employment Pass

Postby ecureilx » Wed, 24 Aug 2016 10:39 pm

BBCWatcher wrote:It'll be up to ICAO (a part of the United Nations), and there will be plenty of advance notice. The consensus standards then get published in ICAO's Document 9303.

Any country can refuse entry, I suppose. Here's the problem with that: does that country want to refuse entry to everybody from ~200 countries all following ICAO (United Stations) standards? Hypothetically that's possible, but it "isn't good for business."


ICAO can't enforce on countries that refuse ICAO's recommendation.

Yes. The world will go e everything but after maybe a long time.

And you mentioned UK ? UK guys have no national IC, and try telling them an E something is compulsory..

PS, UN is a toothless tiger when it comes to lot of things...

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Re: Getting a new passport before issuance of Employment Pass

Postby BBCWatcher » Thu, 25 Aug 2016 9:48 am

I'm making a prediction. You're free to disagree with it, but please do take some care in reading what I wrote. I never used the term "all electronic." In fact, I predict that ICAO would only make smartphone-based passports "recommended." Passport cards (that happen to also be smartcards) would, in my prediction, be "mandatory." They'd be pretty similar to today's passports (already usually containing chips with biometric data, also standardized by ICAO) but in reduced size and without pages. They'd be easier to carry, more durable (and more tamper proof), and water proof (within reason). So, according to my prediction, for those countries that insist on a physical passport there would still be ICAO standard passport cards, and at least some countries might require them at some border crossings. Those countries that also still want paper stamps can grab some card stock and stamp it however they wish, ideally in ICAO standard ways. (ICAO also sets standards for the format of paper visas, and most countries follow ICAO's visa standards, too.)

In recent years ICAO has promulgated passport standards that have meant the global end of group (multi-individual) passports, the universality of machine readable passports, and various other technical standards. Are you aware of any country that has barred an individual's entry on the basis that he/she is carrying an ICAO-compliant passport and that the country objects to the particular, new ICAO standard that that passport incorporates? The boring reality is that ICAO listens to its members (the governments of the world), and they pretty easily agree on this stuff. I predict they'll continue to reach new agreements to continue to improve passports, just as they have in recent years.

So, I continue to predict that, like the banking industry and its decreasing use (almost extinction) of passbooks, passports will also in the coming years lose their passbook-like pages for stamps and they'll become much more similar to chipped ATM/debit cards, but with biometrics. Like those ATM/debit cards they'll have a smartphone-based virtual variant ("Apply Pay"-like and similar), although that'll be "optional" for quite some time. And just like ATM/debit cards there can be as much or as little ancillary paper as any country wishes. But the smartcard-cum-passbook design, which is today's passport design, will lose its passbook part in the coming years, just as bank passbooks evolved into ATM/debit cards.

Incidentally, you can buy duty free at 40,000 feet using a credit or debit card and without the airline having a live data connection. For the (increasingly less common) remote, disconnected border crossing it's still possible to read similar cards using cheap, solar powered, disconnected, portable, rugged border terminals that would look somewhat similar to what flight attendants have already been using for years. Every week, month, or whatever the terminal (or an encrypted memory card from the terminal) heads down from the mountain by mule if necessary, and the central government has its border crossing data. Or not -- this part is optional. They can still have humans eyeball physical cards, write up/stamp card stock, record passport details in a paper ledger, etc. All still possible. But it's 2016, and my prediction is forward looking. More people in the world already have mobile phones than have toilets. The spread of technology is amazing, and it's only going to get more amazing.

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Re: Getting a new passport before issuance of Employment Pass

Postby Strong Eagle » Thu, 25 Aug 2016 10:35 am

^^^^^^^^^^^^

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!!!!

Yes! Let's do move on to duty free at 40,000 feet. It's so entirely germane to the conversation.

What do you recommend for a bus trip across the Thai/Lao border? Tell the stupid Thai/Lao border agents to get an Apple phone with swipeable card reader?

Ya know, for as brilliant as you are BBCW, you can be amazingly stupid.

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Re: Getting a new passport before issuance of Employment Pass

Postby singaporeflyer » Thu, 25 Aug 2016 10:48 am

BBCWatcher wrote:
Incidentally, you can buy duty free at 40,000 feet using a credit or debit card and without the airline having a live data connection. For the (increasingly less common) remote, disconnected border crossing it's still possible to read similar cards using cheap, solar powered, disconnected, portable, rugged border terminals that would look somewhat similar to what flight attendants have already been using for years.


These are called as off-line transactions in credit cards for which no authorization is done and it is like store and charge later kind of transactions. Do you think they can use this concept for immigration? Store who is getting into a country and process them later?

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Re: Getting a new passport before issuance of Employment Pass

Postby BBCWatcher » Thu, 25 Aug 2016 11:20 am

The reading comprehension demonstrated on this site is abysmal. :(

Folks, please go back and read what I wrote. It's English at secondary school level or lower. Here's a hint:

Every week, month, or whatever the terminal (or an encrypted memory card from the terminal) heads down from the mountain by mule if necessary, and the central government has its border crossing data. Or not -- this part is optional. They can still have humans eyeball physical cards, write up/stamp card stock, record passport details in a paper ledger, etc. All still possible.

(Emphasis mine.)

However a country wants to run (or not run) a remote, disconnected border crossing in the middle of the jungle or up in the mountains in the year 2023 (for example) will still be up to that country. My prediction for the future form of the ICAO-standard physical passport does not require any changes to any country's border check processes, with one narrow exception: if the country wants a piece of paper to stamp, that country will provide the paper. (It could even be in the form of a "jacket" for the physical passport card.) As countries already do today with landing cards, customs forms, and departure cards. At whatever mountain huts they want. This is not a problem!

Israel, one of the most security conscious countries in the world, hasn't been stamping passports for decades. But countries can still stamp pieces of paper if they want -- they'll just have to provide the paper in the future, that's all. (My prediction.) That paper can be watermarked, have silk threads, holograms, paid advertisements, beautiful illustrations of landmarks and famous people -- whatever they like, and they get to control the paper, not the passport-issuing country. Progress!

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Re: Getting a new passport before issuance of Employment Pass

Postby singaporeflyer » Thu, 25 Aug 2016 11:32 am

If there is too much unrelated information to read, then you can say that the reading comprehension demonstrated becomes abysmal.

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Re: RE: Re: Getting a new passport before issuance of Employment Pass

Postby ecureilx » Thu, 25 Aug 2016 12:13 pm

singaporeflyer wrote:These are called as off-line transactions in credit cards for which no authorization is done and it is like store and charge later kind of transactions. Do you think they can use this concept for immigration? Store who is getting into a country and process them later?


Immigration is national security...

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Re: Getting a new passport before issuance of Employment Pass

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Thu, 25 Aug 2016 2:34 pm

singaporeflyer wrote:If there is too much unrelated information to read, then you can say that the reading comprehension demonstrated becomes abysmal.


It also shows the writing comprehension is abysmal as it would appear to be just to impress himself, and not his audience, thinking he is doing a service. The constant rambling off tangent serves to keep my PM inbox filled up as I suspect it does for both SE and X9200 by newbies who don't want to have to wade through the piles of garbage being spouted by one person who is hellbent on trying to impress people but is really only alienating them. (Regular and newbie alike) So others are just asking the moderator's their questions offline. We don't like to do this because we like this board to be a collective assemblage of data that can be read by others and not just sitting in somebody's inbox. ](*,)


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