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Visa rejected despite prestigious PhD scholarship

Relocating, travelling or planning to make Singapore home? Discuss the criterias, passes or visa that is required.
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Postby BBCWatcher » Thu, 04 Aug 2016 10:52 am

PNGMK wrote:On a more conciliatory note there is a gap in my opinion in the range of visa and permits available in Singapore.

We're digressing a bit here, but what the heck. ;)

Let's assume there are "gaps." That doesn't mean an individual gets to violate the law to fill those gaps. "There was no suitable visa for me" isn't a viable defense. There might be a political or policy argument but only that. A foreigner has a perfectly viable alternative option: stay out. (Excepting legitimate refugees, at real risk of personal harm, seeking asylum -- a situation Singapore and many other countries do not handle well, in my view.)

1. A religious and charitable workers visa that allows long term residency without a high income as a priest, pastor, nun, temple worker, missionary etc. Similar to the R-1 in the USA.

Singapore offers the Miscellaneous Work Pass for religious workers and others. True, it's limited to 60 days. There is no particular obstacle to religious and charitable workers applying for EPs and S Passes for longer term stays, but there are income minimums (S$2200/month minimum for an S Pass). I don't think it's unreasonable to require income minimums, especially for longer-term stays, and S$2200/month is not a high income in Singapore these days. Also, as long as it isn't compulsory or a condition of employment, the worker is free to donate surplus salary back, voluntarily. Moreover, I'm not enthusiastic about governments discriminating either against or in favor of religious organizations and their members. "Oh, she's going to pray a lot" doesn't strike me as a terrifically strong argument for making an income minimum exception.

Some countries are experimenting with visitors and immigrants posting bonds (or having bonds posted for them). Maybe that could work here, but "be careful what you wish for."

2. A better form of 'multi-entry business activities visa' that proactively permits business visits as per the OP and doesn't rely on the approval at landing in the airport.

I cannot think of any country that guarantees the admissibility of any foreigner. It's a basic security function of a functioning state. Businesses that don't want to take such risks have a very simple and very effective solution: find a resident worker. But there is always a risk of being denied entry when a foreigner crosses a border. There has to be if you're going to have controlled national borders.

That said, I've never heard of businesses complaining about Singapore in particular. ICA seems to do its job quite well, and legitimate businesses understand the rules well. In fact, many businesses hire visa compliance specialist firms to help them stay well within bounds. Singapore's system of In-Principle Approval (IPA) letters is also much better than what most countries offer.

3. Some leeway on LTVP for relatives (in laws, mothers, fathers) of PR's. This is becoming a bit of a personal sore point for me as my mother gets older and I know is a major issue for other families.

I'm not sure what you have in mind here. ICA already allows PRs to sponsor STVP extensions up to 90 days (for practically anybody, including second cousins), and it's simple to file for an extension online (e-XTEND). The United States (a comparison you drew earlier) doesn't allow its permanent residents to sponsor parents (or in-laws) for immigration into the United States at all. They have to become citizens to do that (and still not for in-laws), and then there's a decade or so wait (for parents) until a family preference visa number becomes available. Even spouses of citizens have to wait a year or so to get into the U.S. I don't think it's in the Singapore government's interest to relocate entire villages, yet Singapore offers something closer to that with its LTVP than the U.S. does. Sure, there's an income requirement to sponsor anybody for immigration, but that's sensible and logical, isn't it?

If you're a PR you can sponsor your mother for a LTVP. They're generally decided fairly quickly (within a couple months), and overall approval rates are over 80 percent according to the government. You'll need to demonstrate adequate financial means, as you should if you're going to bring an elderly parent into the country. I can't argue with that. (The U.S. is more strict here and requires that sponsors formally commit, contractually and legally, to make the government whole if the immigrant becomes a burden to the state.)

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Re: Visa rejected despite prestigious PhD scholarship

Postby PNGMK » Thu, 04 Aug 2016 11:11 am

1. Re charitable/religious worker visa. Economics should not be the only factor in a countries immigration policy. Even India and Thailand have this category.

2. I agree that security is paramount and business visitors rarely complain about Singapore visa's. The Iranian chap is of course dealing with a situation where he is in a Cat 2 country for Singapore visa's which mean extra scrutiny. Personally I would like to see something like the APAC Business Travellers Card (which I use routinely) extended to the wider legitimate business community. That's probably where I was headed but of course the ABTC has been threatened with extinction recently by flagrant mis-use.

Thanks for the note about my mother. I was simply not aware that I could sponsor her for an LTVP. I will look it up. Now for my F-I-L that is a slightly more difficult situation as my wife is on an EP.

In general now with the PEP and LTVP+ in place I don't have a major issue with Singapore immigration bar point 1 and that's probably because I'm on the board of a mission group and am aware that Singapore has been a hub for religious and charitable and other non-profit groups for decades but the recent (decade long) tightening up and conversion of residency permits into economic working passes threatens what I consider to be one of the more attractive parts of Singapore's liberal activity in SE Asia. If you don't like missionaries what about green peace workers or amnesty international or World Vision or stringers for the Guardian (Kate Hodal from the Guardian had to leave Singapore because she wasn't making enough I believe to justify a visa here)? All of these groups are struggling with visas for long term folk to use Singapore a base. The life and feel of a country should not be driven just by economics. Part of being a 'graceful' society is accepting that folk who don't contribute economically can contribute a heck of a lot in other non-tangible ways. A 60 day pass is not enough.
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Re: Visa rejected despite prestigious PhD scholarship

Postby BBCWatcher » Thu, 04 Aug 2016 11:36 am

0ALI0 wrote:You don't appear to be too familiar with different MOM categories. Entrepass has a time-limit (if I remember correctly max 2 years after the company was formed) and it is meant for those who work in the company (I don't).

De facto, from your description, you most certainly do. You have an extremely active role as you've described it. It would be entirely reasonable for ICA to conclude that you have carried on a "profession" or "occupation" in Singapore without their (or the Ministry of Manpower's) permission. As far as I'm aware they're the only two Singapore government agencies that can grant such permission. NUS and ACRA, as examples, cannot. (If NUS could grant a Student Pass, perhaps you'd have one by now.)

An Entrepass is one form of permission. It is not the only one. But permission is required.

In case you didn't know, unless you spend certain number of days every year in Singapore, by MOM standard, you are not eligible for employment pass.

That's not correct. An Employment Pass does not require the holder to be physically present in Singapore for any explicit minimum period of time except for practical minimums. There are plenty of Singapore EP holders who are based in Singapore but who have heavy travel schedules, with physical presence in Singapore for mere days per calendar year.

But let's suppose you are correct, for sake of argument. That does not mean you can work in Singapore without work permission. You needed to make an adjustment. ICA and MoM don't adjust for you.

I just happen to be the guy who invented the thing and got famous and whatnot.

That's great, but I'm quite sure there are television cameras and Internet connections in Malaysia or wherever else you have legal work permission. There are also multiple work permission options in Singapore. You apparently didn't like any of the available options and invented your own option. ICA is under no obligation to respect your second invention and (probably) denied your Student Pass on that basis.

I run an unauthorized business and the government comes in to thank me with extra funding and featuring me in their gazette?

I don't think anybody concluded that you "run an unauthorized business." Perhaps you do, but such behavior is not required to violate immigration regulations. What does appear clear enough is that you've been working in Singapore without work permission. That's ICA's (and perhaps MoM's) domain. It's an educated guess that ICA is not pleased with you for that reason, but it's a reasonable guess.

Best of luck with your appeal.

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Re: RE: Re: Visa rejected despite prestigious PhD scholarship

Postby ecureilx » Thu, 04 Aug 2016 11:52 am

BBCWatcher wrote:
0ALI0 wrote:You don't appear to be too familiar with different MOM categories. Entrepass has a time-limit (if I remember correctly max 2 years after the company was formed) and it is meant for those who work in the company (I don't).

De facto, from your description, you most certainly do. You have an extremely active role as you've described it....


No offense but you know OP took the last bus out of town, and in the process, deleted most of his posts ? Posts, the moderators had to reconstruct and reinstate.

I may not add to this thread re: OP's subject, unless additional relevant queries come up.

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Re: Visa rejected despite prestigious PhD scholarship

Postby PNGMK » Thu, 04 Aug 2016 12:06 pm

I'm sure he's sitting in a hotel room in KL stewing and reading this and nursing his pretty hard dick (PHD).
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Re: Visa rejected despite prestigious PhD scholarship

Postby BBCWatcher » Thu, 04 Aug 2016 12:10 pm

PNGMK wrote:Economics should not be the only factor in a countries immigration policy.

It's not the only factor in Singapore. But there is a low minimum income requirement for work permission past 60 days. So do you favor reducing the S$2,200/month minimum income requirement for S Passes?

Personally I would like to see something like the APAC Business Travellers Card (which I use routinely) extended to the wider legitimate business community. That's probably where I was headed but of course the ABTC has been threatened with extinction recently by flagrant mis-use.

Governments are increasingly exchanging information about travelers, and there are growing numbers of national "trusted traveler" programs striking bilateral agreements with each other. There are also several examples of permanent residents in one country enjoying visa-free access to another, even when other citizens of their home country don't. It's reasonable to assume that these and other forms of cooperation will grow over time.

Now for my F-I-L that is a slightly more difficult situation as my wife is on an EP.

She has a few potential options. If she has at least a $10,000/month salary and her employer's cooperation then she/her employer can apply for a LTVP for her father. If she doesn't have her employer's cooperation, but she does have a $12,500/month salary, she can switch to a Personalised Employment Pass (once per lifetime) and then independently sponsor her father for a LTVP. Or she could apply for PR status. If approved, she can sponsor her father for a LTVP. The income threshold is unspecified for PR sponsors but, one can safely assume, it's lower than it is for otherwise equally situated EP and PEP holders.

If you don't like missionaries what about green peace workers or amnesty international or World Vision or stringers for the Guardian (Kate Hodal from the Guardian had to leave Singapore because she wasn't making enough I believe to justify a visa here)?

I love (or at least like) journalists, charity workers, peace advocates, monks, and many, many others. Almost everybody, actually. But there has to be a reasonable economic minimum of some kind, some construction. It isn't free to live in Singapore, unfortunately. India and Thailand aren't like Singapore in this way.

One tweak that might work is to allow, for example, an employer's direct provision of safe, clean, and adequate housing to count for something toward an S Pass. Right now the fixed monthly salary standard does include housing allowances but does not include employer-provided housing (i.e. in-kind compensation) -- the monastery a monk lives in, for example. How about this new standard:

* A fixed monthly salary of at least $2200/month, or
* A fixed monthly salary of at least $1500/month if the employer also provides in-kind, qualified housing with a fair market value of at least $1000/month.

"Qualified" means the housing must be clean, safe, and adequate -- must meet certain minimum standards, in other words.

Would that work?

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Re: Visa rejected despite prestigious PhD scholarship

Postby BBCWatcher » Thu, 04 Aug 2016 1:59 pm

FYI, I wrote this guide describing the advantages and disadvantages of Singapore Permanent Residence, and I try to keep it current. It could be helpful.

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Re: Visa rejected despite prestigious PhD scholarship

Postby BBCWatcher » Tue, 09 Aug 2016 7:28 am

BBCWatcher wrote:....and there are growing numbers of national "trusted traveler" programs striking bilateral agreements with each other.

Singapore and the United States struck such a deal very recently.

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Re: RE: Re: Visa rejected despite prestigious PhD scholarship

Postby ecureilx » Tue, 09 Aug 2016 11:21 am

BBCWatcher wrote:
BBCWatcher wrote:....and there are growing numbers of national "trusted traveler" programs striking bilateral agreements with each other.

Singapore and the United States struck such a deal very recently.

OP is dead, gone, MIA, kaput, banned by moderators ...

What is your point now ? Any relevance to the initial poster's question about him having been refused entry to SG ? Is he an American ? Or is PNGMK American ? Confused I am.

As I posted in another thread, you should seriously make your own thread to post about those amazing hypothetical thoughts of yours. Than cluttering threads that have no connection to what the incredible mind of yours thinks up ...

A thread like Ratm's Random thoughts thread may work wonders for penning your mind waves...




PS, no offence and I have no "authority" to enforce .... you may complain to a moderator if you find my post wrong .... please.

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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Visa rejected despite prestigious PhD scholarship

Postby Wd40 » Tue, 09 Aug 2016 1:21 pm

ecureilx wrote:
BBCWatcher wrote:
BBCWatcher wrote:....and there are growing numbers of national "trusted traveler" programs striking bilateral agreements with each other.

Singapore and the United States struck such a deal very recently.

OP is dead, gone, MIA, kaput, banned by moderators ...

What is your point now ? Any relevance to the initial poster's question about him having been refused entry to SG ? Is he an American ? Or is PNGMK American ? Confused I am.

As I posted in another thread, you should seriously make your own thread to post about those amazing hypothetical thoughts of yours. Than cluttering threads that have no connection to what the incredible mind of yours thinks up ...

A thread like Ratm's Random thoughts thread may work wonders for penning your mind waves...




PS, no offence and I have no "authority" to enforce .... you may complain to a moderator if you find my post wrong .... please.

I don't understand your aggression towards BBC. What was wrong with that post? It looked relevant to the topic for anyone who might stumble upon this thread in the future.

As it is this forum now is pretty much dead with most regulars not visiting anymore. Your aggression will only chase away anyone who might want to stray here to contribute.

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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Visa rejected despite prestigious PhD scholarship

Postby ecureilx » Tue, 09 Aug 2016 1:51 pm

Wd40 wrote:I don't understand your aggression towards BBC. What was wrong with that post? It looked relevant to the topic for anyone who might stumble upon this thread in the future.

As it is this forum now is pretty much dead with most regulars not visiting anymore. Your aggression will only chase away anyone who might want to stray here to contribute.


Aggression ?

No

A bit of thread drift is ok, but going off topic for the sake of proving a point makes the guys asking valid questions confused.

Take a look at the thread where a guy asked about his Malaysian passport thing and one of the totally unwarranted suggestion that was thrown was to risk getting charged for immigration violation. And a dozen meaningless hypothesis justifying the outlandish suggestion..

Another example? Some guy said he wanted to withdraw his CPF. He had his need and urgency and asked about possible repercussions.

What followed was a dozens of paragraphs expounding the benefits of CPF, how it will be helpful for a US citizen (OP Was Indian by the way ..) and any what a horrible idea it is to even think of withdrawing the CPF ...

OP sent me a PM, as he was utterly confused. He just wanted to know if withdrawing the CPF was the worst thing to do vs not having money for urgent heavy medical expenses ! You get what I mean ?

For that matter, quite a few new posters have resorted to PM, than getting over loaded with unrelated detailed information... when they just needed a yes or no answer. .. especially when their first language isn't English..


If that kind of suggestions rock your boat, good luck.

Oh, by the way, the guy who started this thread is an Iranian. If somebody wanted to share about US Singapore agreements, maybe a fresh thread would be better than tagging to an unrelated thread. .. I don't know, correct me if I am wrong.

PS, I did leave the option to Delete my posts to the mods. You too can refer me to the mods if my trying steer the replies in the correct direction and keep them relevant is seen as driving people away. Or if you feel I have driven people away, feel free to brighten my day.

Cheers !!!!
Last edited by ecureilx on Tue, 09 Aug 2016 1:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Visa rejected despite prestigious PhD scholarship

Postby x9200 » Tue, 09 Aug 2016 1:54 pm

@WD40, not that dead I think but I agree, BBCW gets more beating than actually deserved.

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Re: RE: Re: Visa rejected despite prestigious PhD scholarship

Postby ecureilx » Tue, 09 Aug 2016 2:40 pm

x9200 wrote:@WD40, not that dead I think but I agree, BBCW gets more beating than actually deserved.

The more words one writes, the more the person should be ready to face challenges ... and objections from those with different experience ... or so has been my observation in various forums.


The less worded and concise and to the point the reply is, the lesser will be those disputing the theoretical hypothesis .... (unless the reply was very, very relevant to the Nigerian Prince mentioned ... )











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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Visa rejected despite prestigious PhD scholarship

Postby ecureilx » Tue, 09 Aug 2016 5:19 pm

Wd40 wrote:...


And what are your thoughts on this specific thread's OP, who got advice, then decided to ruffle a few feathers and when caught, diligently went about deleting his posts making those who took time to reply look silly ...

Those who took time to reply - include BBCW, are mightily thrilled I guess ...

And another guy from mother land, when didn't like the advice given, or got what he was looking for, decided to Delete his queries, making the thread look meaningless

How should these guys be treated ? Am Just wondering....

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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Visa rejected despite prestigious PhD scholarship

Postby Wd40 » Tue, 09 Aug 2016 7:15 pm

ecureilx wrote:
Wd40 wrote:...


And what are your thoughts on this specific thread's OP, who got advice, then decided to ruffle a few feathers and when caught, diligently went about deleting his posts making those who took time to reply look silly ...

Those who took time to reply - include BBCW, are mightily thrilled I guess ...

And another guy from mother land, when didn't like the advice given, or got what he was looking for, decided to Delete his queries, making the thread look meaningless

How should these guys be treated ? Am Just wondering....


I think the problem is technical.
I think I would follow Quora's model of allowing a grace period and after that not allowing to delete the post. Basically the edit button is disabled. Prevents all this heart burn.

https://www.quora.com/How-do-I-delete-m ... from-Quora

I know other forums like HWZ etc also follow this.

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