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South China Sea ruling .....

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TMD
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Re: South China Sea ruling .....

Postby TMD » Tue, 23 Aug 2016 12:34 am

earthfriendly wrote:Well, it is imperfection within the system that allows incident like Guantanamo Bay to happen. And there was wide spread public discourse on it. Democracy doing its job. Democracy at work.
http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/201 ... eport-says
Compare this to govt censorships in China and SG. The hypocrisy that only the govt can have opionions. Power is meant to be shared (with the public). A democratic concept. Not meant to be hoarded by a single group / govt / man .

Yes, nothing Man-made will ever be perfect - Democracy or otherwise.
Mistakes will be made. Lessons learned and accidents do happened.
The Guantanamo Bay "incident" is one good e.g when Democracy should be doing the work of corrective this mistake.

So my curiosity brought me to another realisation about this Camp - it is still open! :o
I am shocked. Why is it still running after Obama made so much promise during his pres election in 2008 ? Then I found this :

Guantánamo Bay lawyers call bluff on Obama's promise to close prison
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... es-laywers

President Obama promised to close the prison years ago. He formed the PRB and all individual countries agreed to receive their nationals. But months and months have passed, the number of people who have been released through the PRB can be counted on two hands. It’s so incredibly slow. How long will it take for me?

I ask the American people to search for the truth, for the truth of the continuous existence of the prison at Guantánamo. I ask the American people, who claim to protect human rights, to practice what they preach – [color=#FF0000]for where is equality and justice and democracy
?”[/color]

Rabbani, a Karachi taxi driver, has been in Guantánamo for more than 11 years .

I am okay with an imperfect Man-made system of politics, law and punishment.
But why keep a known innocent individual locked up and subjected to torture in 21st century America for over a decade ? I am confused.

earthfriendly wrote:SG (I tend to lump SG govt closer to China then a western democratic model) using the new law to tighten their grip. And when journalists ask for clarifications from gahment, difficult to get a response from gahment. They have no interest in maintaining the law that they themselves created? Only care to use it as a scare tactic to silence public debate. To scare those who are easily scared. The wise ones can spot their paper thin persona from a mile away.
Just like Zhao Ziyang mentioned that he did not learn much during his time with the CCP. Oooooooops, another weakness exposed by an insider. We can't have that, can we? Better quickly come up with a law and make sure he is swiftly dealt with. USA is founded on principle, one of which is democracy and giving a voice to the individuals. What kind of principle binds the CCP and the citizenry of China? To use the full weight of the law (created by themselves, the party members) and force to silence the critics? Such a paper thin organization. An empty shell.
https://www.byline.com/column/23/article/1213


According to the FP article which you shared earlier (http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/08/19/an- ... ao-ziyang/), the Author mentioned "the four volumes .... offer an opportunity to imagine what might have been, had he not been purged in 1989. " The key word is "imagine". Never did the Author claimed Zhao had "mentioned" anything vaguely about his "learning experience". In fact, as I mentioned before, the words "imagine", "if", "might" are often coin"ed. IMHO, hardly an authoritative piece.

Also Il do not understand you now dwell on lumping SG & CN together.
Don't know why you do that - Is this a something to do with cultural thing ?

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Re: RE: Re: South China Sea ruling .....

Postby TMD » Tue, 23 Aug 2016 12:52 am

ecureilx wrote:
TMD wrote:I fully agree with you that China is light-years away from examples set by USA.

Perhaps China should start by setting up its own Guantanamo Bay detention camp. :mrgreen:


Ah, good to know China doesn't have their own Gitmo :D


I have no confirmation of that - That is why I am curious if there is any independent source to provide evidents the existence of China-version of Guantanamo Bay...since this country political system "is light-years away from examples set by USA..."

I hope not, after learning more about how the detainees were and still are being treated in G-bay camp. It really really epitomises how a democratic system found it is in a political quagmire of unable to close this Camp....over 13 years after invading Afghanistan and Iraq. I still hope even with all these Man-made mistakes, the democratic system will put a stop to this and perhaps prevent this from ever happening again. :x

How the CIA tortured its detainees
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... eprivation

PS: I found myself getting lots of info from Guardian.
Anyone here can advice whether their report and sources are reliable ?

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Re: South China Sea ruling .....

Postby Strong Eagle » Tue, 23 Aug 2016 12:54 am

Gitmo is a shameful f*cking stain on the USA, as is Republican support for water boarding and "rendition". Comparatively speaking, China's human rights abuses are magnitudes worse, and the opportunity for remedy, magnitudes less.

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Re: South China Sea ruling .....

Postby TMD » Tue, 23 Aug 2016 1:01 am

sundaymorningstaple wrote:I'm sure TMD will disagree with you. ;-)


Disagreement is part of the natural process in any debate.

That is also how one drives traffic to this Forum. :mrgreen:

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Re: South China Sea ruling .....

Postby TMD » Tue, 23 Aug 2016 1:09 am

earthfriendly wrote:Just like the rest of the world, China too is changing.

Fu's vernacular resonated with ordinary Chinese people, who were already bored with empty talks.


http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2016/08/2 ... edals.html


The complete sentence is :
"Shaped by the social media instead of the state parlance, Fu's vernacular resonated with ordinary Chinese people, who were already bored with empty talks."


So China does have its own social media and Fox isn't even accusing it as part of Beijing propaganda machinary. Well, sign of China is changing and I supposed some of us need a long-overdue update in the perception department also.

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Re: RE: Re: South China Sea ruling .....

Postby ecureilx » Tue, 23 Aug 2016 11:45 pm

And examples of Peace China Style ..

http://m.koreatimes.co.kr/phone/news/vi ... idx=212450

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Re: South China Sea ruling .....

Postby earthfriendly » Thu, 25 Aug 2016 3:18 am

Took 10 years in the making. So scarred huh? And guess what? Did the UN envoy get unfettered access?


http://www.voanews.com/a/china-gives-no ... 78643.html

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Re: South China Sea ruling .....

Postby PNGMK » Thu, 25 Aug 2016 7:03 am

Strong Eagle wrote:Gitmo is a shameful f*cking stain on the USA, as is Republican support for water boarding and "rendition". Comparatively speaking, China's human rights abuses are magnitudes worse, and the opportunity for remedy, magnitudes less.


I'd add that the three items SE gives have made it impossible for the US to effectively argue that the same things should not apply to their own citizens when captured. In addition the US examples generally have made it harder for citizens in the world to complain about abuse ("Well the USA does it; so what's your problem?"). I was and am still extremely disheartened by the USA in this regard; prior to this it was possible to use the USA as a shining light on a hill but of course George Bush stuffed that up (to be fair it started back in the Vietnam war days or even prior).
I have gay, black, Asian friends and then JR8.

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Re: RE: Re: South China Sea ruling .....

Postby TMD » Thu, 25 Aug 2016 12:35 pm

ecureilx wrote:And examples of Peace China Style ..
http://m.koreatimes.co.kr/phone/news/vi ... idx=212450


I did a further reading up about this incident and found out this occur over an overlapping portion of this so-called Air Defense Identification Zone (ADIZ) between China and S Korea. ADIZ isn't a territorial airspace, but rather a forward-defensive policy practiced by several countries and isn't part of any UN treaties nor agreement.

Korea Times also indicated what might be the reason behind this:
Some observers say China’s latest violation of the overlapping zones should be seen as a show of force against the planned deployment of the THAAD battery.

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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: South China Sea ruling .....

Postby ecureilx » Thu, 25 Aug 2016 12:38 pm

TMD wrote:I did a further reading up about this incident and found out this occur over an overlapping portion of this so-called Air Defense Identification Zone (ADIZ) between China and S Korea. ADIZ isn't a territorial airspace, but rather a forward-defensive policy practiced by several countries and isn't part of any UN treaties nor agreement.

Korea Times also indicated what might be the reason behind this:
Some observers say China’s latest violation of the overlapping zones should be seen as a show of force against the planned deployment of the THAAD battery.


So it's ok for you to tell me how I defend my land ?

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Re: South China Sea ruling .....

Postby TMD » Thu, 25 Aug 2016 12:42 pm

earthfriendly wrote:Took 10 years in the making. So scarred huh? And guess what? Did the UN envoy get unfettered access?
http://www.voanews.com/a/china-gives-no ... 78643.html


CNA (24 Aug) - China denies restricting activities of UN rights envoy
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/asi ... 70042.html
Philip Alston, the U.N. Special Rapporteur on extreme poverty and human rights, said the Chinese government interfered with his work during a visit to China by blocking access to individuals whom he had hoped to meet.....Special rapporteurs work on a voluntary basis, are not U.N. staff and do not get paid for their work.


:o

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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: South China Sea ruling .....

Postby TMD » Thu, 25 Aug 2016 12:44 pm

ecureilx wrote:
TMD wrote:So it's ok for you to tell me how I defend my land ?


Not if you paid me for the consultancy. :mrgreen:

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Re: South China Sea ruling .....

Postby TMD » Thu, 25 Aug 2016 12:57 pm

PNGMK wrote:
Strong Eagle wrote:Gitmo is a shameful f*cking stain on the USA, as is Republican support for water boarding and "rendition". Comparatively speaking, China's human rights abuses are magnitudes worse, and the opportunity for remedy, magnitudes less.


I'd add that the three items SE gives have made it impossible for the US to effectively argue that the same things should not apply to their own citizens when captured. In addition the US examples generally have made it harder for citizens in the world to complain about abuse ("Well the USA does it; so what's your problem?"). I was and am still extremely disheartened by the USA in this regard; prior to this it was possible to use the USA as a shining light on a hill but of course George Bush stuffed that up (to be fair it started back in the Vietnam war days or even prior).


This Thread about international laws just keep getting juicer.

In the course of my little research, I found international law and norms isn't exactly what its seems
--> It can be broken, ignored, challenged and exploited.
Jessica Schulberg August 26, 2014
The Hague Treats War Criminals More Humanely Than Gitmo Treats Its Detainees

https://newrepublic.com/article/119201/ ... guantanamo

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Re: South China Sea ruling .....

Postby TMD » Thu, 25 Aug 2016 4:41 pm

water boarding and "rendition"


aka "enhanced interrogation program?
Meet the possible architect of this CIA program

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Re: South China Sea ruling .....

Postby earthfriendly » Mon, 05 Sep 2016 12:24 pm



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