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South China Sea ruling .....

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TMD
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Re: South China Sea ruling .....

Postby TMD » Sat, 20 Aug 2016 3:11 am

sundaymorningstaple wrote:I'm replying just like China does. With implied force. I'm letting you know what you appear to be and what I could possibly do if I had my way. Oh, I would definitely be Politically Incorrect. No ducking fout about it. :cool:


What can I say ? Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery =D>
Anyway, do you happen to share another trait of this middle kingdom of talking about its history ? I would assume as a mod, you have been around for sometime in Asia. What's your little history here ?

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Re: South China Sea ruling .....

Postby earthfriendly » Sat, 20 Aug 2016 10:49 am

That is the thing with dictatorship. The direction of the country is dictated and dependent on a small group of people. Who decides for the majority.


He explicitly rejected the view that economic reform had to precede political reform or that political reform was not necessary.


http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/08/19/an- ... ao-ziyang/

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Re: South China Sea ruling .....

Postby TMD » Sat, 20 Aug 2016 11:50 am

earthfriendly wrote:That is the thing with dictatorship. The direction of the country is dictated and dependent on a small group of people. Who decides for the majority.
He explicitly rejected the view that economic reform had to precede political reform or that political reform was not necessary.


http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/08/19/an- ... ao-ziyang/


Thank you for sharing. An interesting view of China on how it may turn out after 1989.

1st let's just say even in a democracies, it can be ruled by an elite few whose decisions are sometimes made without the full knowledge of citizen either through lies or cover-up.

2nd The author mixes his predictions with the reality and a good load of assumptions with "if"and "may" thrown in. However, he did make reference to Singapore when commenting on how China might become under Zhao's reform:

...Had Zhao remained in power and been able to pursue this twin-reform (political and economic) strategy, it is an open question whether he and China would have wound up with the same fate as Gorbachev and the former Soviet Union.....Zhao’s model of political reform for China was one of “neo-authoritarianism” along the lines of Singapore....


What do you think of this ?

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Re: South China Sea ruling .....

Postby earthfriendly » Sat, 20 Aug 2016 12:28 pm

It is well-understood that democracy is not perfect, even by people upholding and touting that model. Simply because it is run by humans, who are imperfect by nature. All human run systems will be imperfect and it will reflect the very imperfection of the humans, themselves. However, compared to Communism and dictatorships, it is the lesser of the evils. Unless, you TMD, can personally propose a new form of govt much much much much better than democracry, please speak up now. If this discussion gets too pedantic, I will not be interested in partaking. I am not a paper chaser, nor a paper general nor stuck in an ideology nor stuck in argument mode (getting into an argument simply for the sake of arguing).

What is wrong with using "what if" scenarios? The author specifically pointed that it is a hypothisis and he did not try to pass it off as The Truth or God's Word. Anyway, it is just an opinion piece by a person. I will take it as it is.

He uses SG as an example as it is one small step-up compared to the openly-repressive CCP. Which is more achievable for China. Rather than using an example like USA, which is light years ahead. It will take several of my lifetimes for China to reach the (political) stature of USA.

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Re: South China Sea ruling .....

Postby TMD » Sun, 21 Aug 2016 11:35 pm

earthfriendly wrote:It is well-understood that democracy is not perfect, even by people upholding and touting that model. Simply because it is run by humans, who are imperfect by nature. All human run systems will be imperfect and it will reflect the very imperfection of the humans, themselves. However, compared to Communism and dictatorships, it is the lesser of the evils. Unless, you TMD, can personally propose a new form of govt much much much much better than democracry, please speak up now. If this discussion gets too pedantic, I will not be interested in partaking. I am not a paper chaser, nor a paper general nor stuck in an ideology nor stuck in argument mode (getting into an argument simply for the sake of arguing).

What is wrong with using "what if" scenarios? The author specifically pointed that it is a hypothisis and he did not try to pass it off as The Truth or God's Word. Anyway, it is just an opinion piece by a person. I will take it as it is.

He uses SG as an example as it is one small step-up compared to the openly-repressive CCP. Which is more achievable for China. Rather than using an example like USA, which is light years ahead. It will take several of my lifetimes for China to reach the (political) stature of USA.


Very rightly so - Democracy is the way. It is just what sort of variant it should fit a given nation.

I fully agree with you that China is light-years away from examples set by USA.

Perhaps China should start by setting up its own Guantanamo Bay detention camp. :mrgreen:

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Re: South China Sea ruling .....

Postby earthfriendly » Mon, 22 Aug 2016 1:21 am

Well, it is imperfection within the system that allows incident like Guantanamo Bay to happen. And there was wide spread public discourse on it. Democracy doing its job. Democracy at work.

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/201 ... eport-says

Compare this to govt censorships in China and SG. The hypocrisy that only the govt can have opionions. Power is meant to be shared (with the public). A democratic concept. Not meant to be hoarded by a single group / govt / man .

SG (I tend to lump SG govt closer to China then a western democratic model) using the new law to tighten their grip. And when journalists ask for clarifications from gahment, difficult to get a response from gahment. They have no interest in maintaining the law that they themselves created? Only care to use it as a scare tactic to silence public debate. To scare those who are easily scared. The wise ones can spot their paper thin persona from a mile away.

Just like Zhao Ziyang mentioned that he did not learn much during his time with the CCP. Oooooooops, another weakness exposed by an insider. We can't have that, can we? Better quickly come up with a law and make sure he is swiftly dealt with. USA is founded on principle, one of which is democracy and giving a voice to the individuals. What kind of principle binds the CCP and the citizenry of China? To use the full weight of the law (created by themselves, the party members) and force to silence the critics? Such a paper thin organization. An empty shell.

https://www.byline.com/column/23/article/1213

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Re: RE: Re: South China Sea ruling .....

Postby ecureilx » Mon, 22 Aug 2016 1:52 am

TMD wrote:I fully agree with you that China is light-years away from examples set by USA.

Perhaps China should start by setting up its own Guantanamo Bay detention camp. :mrgreen:


Ah, good to know China doesn't have their own Gitmo :D

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Re: South China Sea ruling .....

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Mon, 22 Aug 2016 10:22 am

^^ That's because they just shoot them and be done with it.

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Re: South China Sea ruling .....

Postby earthfriendly » Mon, 22 Aug 2016 10:37 am

Really? So scary one. Better lie low and make sure to toe the party line at all time. Remain a 3rd world non-questioning citizen when dealing with 3rd world govts. Or else, once deemed an enemy of the state by these few elites, one will not stand a chance in their Court of (Non) Justice.

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Re: RE: Re: South China Sea ruling .....

Postby ecureilx » Mon, 22 Aug 2016 11:05 am

sundaymorningstaple wrote:^^ That's because they just shoot them and be done with it.

I am pretty sure they will do the shooting after lot of jaw jaw :)

It's not that bad I guess ;)

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Re: South China Sea ruling .....

Postby Strong Eagle » Mon, 22 Aug 2016 11:20 am

sundaymorningstaple wrote:^^ That's because they just shoot them and be done with it.


Or... they pick you up in the middle of the night to be "disappeared" into the "justice system". Reformers, critics of the Communist party just disappear.

As long as there is no independent judiciary in China, and there can't be when the party controls everything, there will be no real rule of law. China, in spite of its many gains is still run by strongmen who fight their way up the party apparatus to gain power, not through free elections.

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Re: South China Sea ruling .....

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Mon, 22 Aug 2016 11:23 am

I'm sure TMD will disagree with you. ;-)

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Re: South China Sea ruling .....

Postby earthfriendly » Mon, 22 Aug 2016 1:40 pm

Just like the rest of the world, China too is changing.

Fu's vernacular resonated with ordinary Chinese people, who were already bored with empty talks.


http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2016/08/2 ... edals.html

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Re: RE: Re: South China Sea ruling .....

Postby ecureilx » Mon, 22 Aug 2016 10:07 pm


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Re: South China Sea ruling .....

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Mon, 22 Aug 2016 10:58 pm

^^^ Good example of veiled threats that I was talking about.


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