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South China Sea ruling .....

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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: South China Sea ruling .....

Postby ecureilx » Mon, 15 Aug 2016 2:06 pm

TMD wrote:I highly doubt China had called the PCA court a "fake". More like accusing the tribunal and its ruling as *illegal* and against UN regulation..


Fake/illegal, yes, it makes a big difference ....

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Re: South China Sea ruling .....

Postby TMD » Mon, 15 Aug 2016 3:34 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:One thing is for certain. If the 'peens stands down, eventually all of S.E. Asia is in for a rough time as China will extract minerals and forbid fishing in ALL of the South China Sea except for Chinese boats. Air traffic will likely have to eventually rerouted as well. All boats will likely have to pay 'tribute' to pass through her waters. And ASEAN will dissolve as eventually as China expands her borders southward annexing her southern & eastern neighbours (for their protection).


I don't think it is anyone's interest to see access being denied, maritime and air traffic being rerouted or worst interrupted - that applies to both the Philippines and China. Same goes for your prediction of China "annexing" act or tribute payment thingy.

No one wins in any of those scenario - why show anyone in the Asia Pacific wants conflict ? And China certainly has its own interest to protect and ensure the current trade routes remains open which its economy and the 1-Belt-1-Road is so depend on.

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Re: RE: Re: South China Sea ruling .....

Postby ecureilx » Mon, 15 Aug 2016 3:54 pm

TMD wrote:
sundaymorningstaple wrote:One thing is for certain. If the 'peens stands down, eventually all of S.E. Asia is in for a rough time as China will extract minerals and forbid fishing in ALL of the South China Sea except for Chinese boats. Air traffic will likely have to eventually rerouted as well. All boats will likely have to pay 'tribute' to pass through her waters. And ASEAN will dissolve as eventually as China expands her borders southward annexing her southern & eastern neighbours (for their protection).


I don't think it is anyone's interest to see access being denied, maritime and air traffic being rerouted or worst interrupted - that applies to both the Philippines and China. Same goes for your prediction of China "annexing" act or tribute payment thingy.

No one wins in any of those scenario - why show anyone in the Asia Pacific wants conflict ? And China certainly has its own interest to protect and ensure the current trade routes remains open which its economy and the 1-Belt-1-Road is so depend on.


It is in China's interest to flex their muscles and sink some enemy ships, just in line with the citizen's demand for blood. And divert attention from local economic issues.

Enough times China called Philippine a bully - does that make sense ? If yes, explain how Philippines is a bully for demanding only parts of SCS within their 200 km EEZ, while China wants waters that's so far from any of their land.

And please, how much of a bully can teeny meany Philippines be, with no fighter planes, no bombers and not much of a navy vs bullied China ;)

China does not only talk but they also forced a Philippine sponsored oil exploration team to stop.

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Re: RE: Re: South China Sea ruling .....

Postby TMD » Mon, 15 Aug 2016 4:01 pm

ecureilx wrote:
sundaymorningstaple wrote:One thing is for certain. If the 'peens stands down, eventually all of S.E. Asia is in for a rough time as China will extract minerals and forbid fishing in ALL of the South China Sea except for Chinese boats. Air traffic will likely have to eventually rerouted as well. All boats will likely have to pay 'tribute' to pass through her waters. And ASEAN will dissolve as eventually as China expands her borders southward annexing her southern & eastern neighbours (for their protection).


I do give credit for Filipinos not giving in. The same Filipinos who believe in Marcos 3000 tonne gold as the reason for his wealth etc ...

For once they knew China's talks would be one sided - like SCS is ours, get out ..


I give credit to the current Philippines government from moving back from the brink after the PCA ruling simply because everyone now can see there is a cliff at the end of this legal road to no where.

BTW, I tried looking for evidence that China is interested in chasing anyone out of SCS. Surprising, I can only discover that China had invited the Philippines to join use of resources long before Obama's pivot.

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Re: RE: Re: South China Sea ruling .....

Postby Barnsley » Mon, 15 Aug 2016 4:26 pm

TMD wrote:
BTW, I tried looking for evidence that China is interested in chasing anyone out of SCS. Surprising, I can only discover that China had invited the Philippines to join use of resources long before Obama's pivot.


Bilateral agreements when there a multiple claimants are nonsense.

All the ruling stated was that they weren't Islands therefore they had Exclusive Economic Zone associated with them.

China is looking to use its "financial muscle" to strong arm nations into agreeing with its thinking.

Compromise doesn't seem to be in the vocabulary
Life is short, paddle harder!!

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Re: RE: Re: South China Sea ruling .....

Postby TMD » Mon, 15 Aug 2016 4:36 pm

ecureilx wrote:
TMD wrote:
sundaymorningstaple wrote:One thing is for certain. If the 'peens stands down, eventually all of S.E. Asia is in for a rough time as China will extract minerals and forbid fishing in ALL of the South China Sea except for Chinese boats. Air traffic will likely have to eventually rerouted as well. All boats will likely have to pay 'tribute' to pass through her waters. And ASEAN will dissolve as eventually as China expands her borders southward annexing her southern & eastern neighbours (for their protection).


I don't think it is anyone's interest to see access being denied, maritime and air traffic being rerouted or worst interrupted - that applies to both the Philippines and China. Same goes for your prediction of China "annexing" act or tribute payment thingy.

No one wins in any of those scenario - why show anyone in the Asia Pacific wants conflict ? And China certainly has its own interest to protect and ensure the current trade routes remains open which its economy and the 1-Belt-1-Road is so depend on.


It is in China's interest to flex their muscles and sink some enemy ships, just in line with the citizen's demand for blood. And divert attention from local economic issues.

Enough times China called Philippine a bully - does that make sense ? If yes, explain how Philippines is a bully for demanding only parts of SCS within their 200 km EEZ, while China wants waters that's so far from any of their land.

And please, how much of a bully can teeny meany Philippines be, with no fighter planes, no bombers and not much of a navy vs bullied China ;)

China does not only talk but they also forced a Philippine sponsored oil exploration team to stop.


I did a reality check over the last 3 decades SCS dispute - aside from the 1988 incident with Vietnam, I cannot find any report of incidents of boat sinking involving Chinese naval or maritime vessels. The only thing that shows up in my search are:

a) 2013 Philippines coast guard attack on a Taiwanese trawler and killing of its captain
b) Indonesian sinking captured foreign fishing boats.

Perhaps I am missing sometime that you had discovered.

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Re: RE: Re: South China Sea ruling .....

Postby TMD » Mon, 15 Aug 2016 4:46 pm

Barnsley wrote:
TMD wrote:
BTW, I tried looking for evidence that China is interested in chasing anyone out of SCS. Surprising, I can only discover that China had invited the Philippines to join use of resources long before Obama's pivot.


Bilateral agreements when there a multiple claimants are nonsense.

All the ruling stated was that they weren't Islands therefore they had Exclusive Economic Zone associated with them.

China is looking to use its "financial muscle" to strong arm nations into agreeing with its thinking.

Compromise doesn't seem to be in the vocabulary


"Bilateral agreements" is the lowest hanging fruit in a situation involving multi-parties dispute. What else do you expect those claimants do ? Sue one another ?

I still find jaw-jaw more realistic than going through law-law which has shown to be useless when territorial sovereignty is involved.
I guess Ramos visting China in this post-PCA ruling shows proof the point.

SCS dispute isn't a recent problem. This has been going on since the 1970s and all parties, to their credit, had managed the situation pretty well. But I cannot understand why the flare up within the last few years.

Can someone explain to me ?

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Re: RE: Re: South China Sea ruling .....

Postby Barnsley » Mon, 15 Aug 2016 5:10 pm

TMD wrote:
Barnsley wrote:
TMD wrote:
BTW, I tried looking for evidence that China is interested in chasing anyone out of SCS. Surprising, I can only discover that China had invited the Philippines to join use of resources long before Obama's pivot.


Bilateral agreements when there a multiple claimants are nonsense.

All the ruling stated was that they weren't Islands therefore they had Exclusive Economic Zone associated with them.

China is looking to use its "financial muscle" to strong arm nations into agreeing with its thinking.

Compromise doesn't seem to be in the vocabulary


"Bilateral agreements" is the lowest hanging fruit in a situation involving multi-parties dispute. What else do you expect those claimants do ? Sue one another ?

I still find jaw-jaw more realistic than going through law-law which has shown to be useless when territorial sovereignty is involved.
I guess Ramos visting China in this post-PCA ruling shows proof the point.

SCS dispute isn't a recent problem. This has been going on since the 1970s and all parties, to their credit, had managed the situation pretty well. But I cannot understand why the flare up within the last few years.

Can someone explain to me ?


The failing internally of China , Govt whipping up some nationalism to keep the masses from noticing that layoffs are coming thick and fast and that the Govt cant afford to keep subsidising massive over capacity in its heavy industries.

Divide and rule is the Chinese method when it comes to ASEAN.

Their worst nightmare is a united front!!
Life is short, paddle harder!!

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Re: RE: Re: South China Sea ruling .....

Postby TMD » Mon, 15 Aug 2016 5:53 pm

Barnsley wrote:
TMD wrote:
Barnsley wrote:
Bilateral agreements when there a multiple claimants are nonsense.

All the ruling stated was that they weren't Islands therefore they had Exclusive Economic Zone associated with them.

China is looking to use its "financial muscle" to strong arm nations into agreeing with its thinking.

Compromise doesn't seem to be in the vocabulary


"Bilateral agreements" is the lowest hanging fruit in a situation involving multi-parties dispute. What else do you expect those claimants do ? Sue one another ?

I still find jaw-jaw more realistic than going through law-law which has shown to be useless when territorial sovereignty is involved.
I guess Ramos visting China in this post-PCA ruling shows proof the point.

SCS dispute isn't a recent problem. This has been going on since the 1970s and all parties, to their credit, had managed the situation pretty well. But I cannot understand why the flare up within the last few years.

Can someone explain to me ?


The failing internally of China , Govt whipping up some nationalism to keep the masses from noticing that layoffs are coming thick and fast and that the Govt cant afford to keep subsidising massive over capacity in its heavy industries.
Divide and rule is the Chinese method when it comes to ASEAN.
Their worst nightmare is a united front!!


If China is failing internally, we should be seeing more Chinese refugees flooding rest of Asia, like what the EU had been getting from the Africa and ME.

instead I keep hearing news about Chinese tourists being targeted by thieves in Paris or one of them involuntarily turn into a "refugee" after he lost his wallet while traveling across Germany.. :mrgreen:

Are these for real or just another well-executed media propaganda from Beijing ? 8-[

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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: South China Sea ruling .....

Postby ecureilx » Mon, 15 Aug 2016 6:39 pm

TMD wrote:BTW, I tried looking for evidence that China is interested in chasing anyone out of SCS. Surprising, I can only discover that China had invited the Philippines to join use of resources long before Obama's pivot.


You should dig deeper or look for news from Philippines.

Though it's quite since June, enough of incidents are on record - of Chinese coast guard and their support vessels chasing Filipino fishermen and even sinking the catch.

As of now fishermen from Zambales have been warned not to go too far. And that's not even 100 km from Philippine land, as the Chinese coast guard had chased away Filipino fishermen with water cannon.

Don't forget, the Philippines navy has to use non descript boats to re supply their beached Landing ship. Re supply had to be air dropped two years ago when the Chinese fleet enforced a blockade.

Oh, as recent as last year the Chinese coast guard and their proxy fishing fleet sank a Vietnam fishing boat for alleged encroachment .. about 50 km from Vietnam coast.

The Chinese coast guard and their proxy fishing boats have been raring for a fight.

Last, but not least, China, apart from their new fighter capable runway, launched a 12,000 tonne coast guard ship and deployed it in SCS. Yes, for peaceful purposes a mega ship ..

A ship larger than destroyers..

http://www.popularmechanics.com/militar ... ard-cutter

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/why-ch ... 1677699141
Last edited by ecureilx on Mon, 15 Aug 2016 6:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: South China Sea ruling .....

Postby ecureilx » Mon, 15 Aug 2016 6:48 pm

TMD wrote:..


I won't be surprised if China stakes claim and accuses Philippines of theft in the Malampaya Offshore project.

Actually if you read up on Malampaya, you will know why no further exploration took place.

Don't also forget China recently positioning their own oil exploration rig just off the coast of Vietnam, which was just a show of force.

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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: South China Sea ruling .....

Postby TMD » Mon, 15 Aug 2016 10:20 pm

ecureilx wrote:
TMD wrote:BTW, I tried looking for evidence that China is interested in chasing anyone out of SCS. Surprising, I can only discover that China had invited the Philippines to join use of resources long before Obama's pivot.


You should dig deeper or look for news from Philippines.

Though it's quite since June, enough of incidents are on record - of Chinese coast guard and their support vessels chasing Filipino fishermen and even sinking the catch.

As of now fishermen from Zambales have been warned not to go too far. And that's not even 100 km from Philippine land, as the Chinese coast guard had chased away Filipino fishermen with water cannon.

Don't forget, the Philippines navy has to use non descript boats to re supply their beached Landing ship. Re supply had to be air dropped two years ago when the Chinese fleet enforced a blockade.

Oh, as recent as last year the Chinese coast guard and their proxy fishing fleet sank a Vietnam fishing boat for alleged encroachment .. about 50 km from Vietnam coast.

The Chinese coast guard and their proxy fishing boats have been raring for a fight.

Last, but not least, China, apart from their new fighter capable runway, launched a 12,000 tonne coast guard ship and deployed it in SCS. Yes, for peaceful purposes a mega ship ..

A ship larger than destroyers..

http://www.popularmechanics.com/militar ... ard-cutter

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/why-ch ... 1677699141


Thanks for highlighting those Chinese aggression against the Philippines. From your source (url link ? ), aside from using water cannon, did the Chinese used deadly means that resulted in lost of life?

Reason I asked is I did a little homework as you had suggested and found the confrontation goes back into the 90s and some of the Pinoy's encounter also involved other ASEAN countries from Vietnamese vessels to even Malaysian fighters..

Shouldn't those acts from other claimants be also consider as provocation against the Philippines over the SCS dispute?

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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: South China Sea ruling .....

Postby ecureilx » Mon, 15 Aug 2016 10:41 pm

TMD wrote:Thanks for highlighting those Chinese aggression against the Philippines. From your source (url link ? ), aside from using water cannon, did the Chinese used deadly means that resulted in lost of life?


You can do your own search.

You mean only when people die it is serious?

Does chasing fisherman from their traditional fishing ground, cutting fishing nets, stopping and creating a barricade around Scarborough not matter ?

I guess you didn't find the recent sinking of Vietnamese fishing boat .. as worthwhile since nobody died. ..

Reason I asked is I did a little homework as you had suggested and found the confrontation goes back into the 90s and some of the Pinoy's encounter also involved other ASEAN countries from Vietnamese vessels to even Malaysian fighters..


That's old story. I am talking of what China has been doing for the past 3 years or so.

Shouldn't those acts from other claimants be also consider as provocation against the Philippines over the SCS dispute?


Nobody of late is getting pushy like China.

Well, the others have minor over lapping claims but China claims all including the nearest waters of Philippines.

You should do some read up on Philippines news sites unless you are trolling me hinting it's all not that bad ...

Yes. Not that bad, like when China put up a large artificial island for what purpose again ?

Btw, did you come across Sierra Madre in your "search" ?

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Re: South China Sea ruling .....

Postby TMD » Mon, 15 Aug 2016 10:53 pm

ecureilx wrote:
TMD wrote:..


I won't be surprised if China stakes claim and accuses Philippines of theft in the Malampaya Offshore project.

Actually if you read up on Malampaya, you will know why no further exploration took place.

Don't also forget China recently positioning their own oil exploration rig just off the coast of Vietnam, which was just a show of force.


I read up on this project. Here is what Reuters says in its July coverage, and there isn't a mention of China making accusation against the Manila over the oil field exploration. Rather Reuter's report seems to indicate Beijing has not shut its door for talks.

Jaw jaw is better than law law.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-south ... SKCN1020HK

But some Filipino oil executives think teaming up again with CNOOC ( China National Offshore Oil Corporation) could solve problems on both the diplomatic and logistical fronts.

Pangilinan of Philex said he would not close the door on a China JV, while Philex President Daniel Stephen Carlos said a "farm-in" type deal was also being looked at.

Rufino Bomasang, a former Philippines energy ministry undersecretary and current executive chairman of Otto Energy Investments, an oil and gas exploration and production company, said restarting the JMSU with CNOOC should be considered.


If China is willing to consider JV at Reed Bank, I don't see why Manila should be dragging its feet. Clearly, time isn't on the Philippines side with the current resources in Malampaya is expected to run out soon. End of the day the PCA court proceeding and its ruling didn't help in de-escalating the tension.

I also notice another thing - a new name called " West Philippine Sea".
I can't find it in any international map nor on Google Map thus far. Where is it ?

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Re: RE: Re: South China Sea ruling .....

Postby ecureilx » Mon, 15 Aug 2016 11:09 pm

TMD wrote:
ecureilx wrote:
TMD wrote:..


I won't be surprised if China stakes claim and accuses Philippines of theft in the Malampaya Offshore project.

Actually if you read up on Malampaya, you will know why no further exploration took place.

Don't also forget China recently positioning their own oil exploration rig just off the coast of Vietnam, which was just a show of force.


I read up on this project. Here is what Reuters says in its July coverage, and there isn't a mention of China making accusation against the Manila over the oil field exploration. Rather Reuter's report seems to indicate Beijing has not shut its door for talks.

Jaw jaw is better than law law.


I have no idea how you miss the news articles about China having pushed out other exploration plans by directly and indirectly warning off the interested JV partners ...

Have you thought of telling the Filipinos they are crazy to not jaw jaw (????) where they will end up losing ? What jaw jaw ? Where the big guy says the small guy is a bully and hence, everything must go to the big guy and since the small guy is a bully, but I am not a bully, here, let me build you a train line in Luzon or rehabilitate an airport or build a new sea port somewhere .. forget about asking anything else. Deal ?

The sources mentioned in your news article are primarily private businessmen who only see $$ .

Enough said there.


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