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South China Sea ruling .....

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Re: South China Sea ruling .....

Postby ecureilx » Fri, 15 Jul 2016 4:26 pm

earthfriendly wrote:
ecureilx wrote:And then Russia has said they will stand by Philippines, in the South China Sea Row. Maybe they are hoping to become good guys, like how they did in Syria :)


Not aware of this. But quite a sweet gesture from Russia :lol: . Every cloud has a silver lining.


Don't forget, the Dragon took on the Bear, to teach the bear a lesson. And the Vietnam invasion was also to teach the bear a lesson. While the bear is selling weapons to the Dragon, maybe they still are licking their old wounds.

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Re: South China Sea ruling .....

Postby TMD » Sun, 17 Jul 2016 12:07 pm

Is this true or just another propaganda from the PRC media ?

I fail to understand after going through all these legal channels, the UN has nothing to do with the trial and verdict passed by the PCA ? :o

http://www.mb.com.ph/un-and-icj-reaffirms-non-relation-to-south-china-sea-arbitral-tribunal/
UN and ICJ reaffirms non-relation to South China Sea Arbitral Tribunal
by People's Daily July 16, 2016 (updated)

The United Nations (UN) and the International Court of Justice (ICJ) recently issued statements reiterating that they have no connection to the temporary arbitral tribunal established under UNCLOS for the South China Sea case brought unilaterally by the Philippines.​

The spokesperson of UN Secretary-General also stated that “the UN doesn’t have a position on the legal and procedural merits of the case or on the disputed claims” at a daily briefing on Tuesday.

On Wednesday, the UN’s official account on Sina Weibo, China’s answer to Twitter, posted that the tribunal has nothing to do with the UN.

“The ICJ, located at the Peace Palace, is the principal judicial organ of the UN, which was established in accordance with the UN Charter,” reads the post.

The Peace Place is built to house the Permanent Court of International Justice, the predecessor of the ICJ, by the Carnegie Foundation. The UN donates to the foundation annually for using the building, the post explained.

“Another tenant of the Peace Palace is the Permanent Court of Arbitration (PCA) established in 1899, but it has no correlation with the UN,” the post further pointed out.

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Re: South China Sea ruling .....

Postby TMD » Sun, 17 Jul 2016 12:18 pm

ecureilx wrote:
earthfriendly wrote:-Cultural and historical baggage
Chinese revel in their long and rich culture. They savor their ties to their past e.g. ancestor worship (tribute / respect may be more apt than the term "worship"). A 9 dash line on an ancient map is very meaningful to them. Altho it may seem to have little relevance in present day for you and me. In fact, many mainland Chinese see themselves being bullied by the outside world for robbing them of their historical legitimacy. And scratching their heads, why don't these foreigners recognize our historical map? What is wrong with them? Why are they so mean to us :???: :mrgreen: . This is our identity. Made worse by govt propaganda who use it as a uniting force to distract.


in South China Sea, it is worse, being whipped by a small time puppy - Philippines. For Chinese Party media, Philippines is the bully. And it's about time to teach the puppy to behave.

PS, about India, in 1890 or thereabouts, A part of Kashmir had been documented as part of the Aksai Chin being part of China, possibly due to a mapping error.

The subsequent Maps rectified the error, and placed Aksai Chin in India, as it always was.

Come a few decades - the PRC rulers found the old map which placed Aksai Chin in China, and now the place being in India - effectively means India Stole it, and it's time to get it back. And to teach India a lesson - that is, not to bully China.

Hence, China went to war 1962, and lost a 1000 or so soldiers, and likewise, India too lost a 1000 or so soldiers, and China took more than Aksai Chin, and when stalemate was reached, China 'graciously' gave back to India parts China didn't need, but kept the Aksai Chin area. Which sort of lopped off the top right side of India, the side that has been always been part of India, is now part of China.

So, what stops China from repeating 1962 ?


Oh, well, didn't they go to war with Vietnam as well, and lost a few thousand soldiers, just to prove a point ?


I got a different version of how that 1962 conflict came about.
Can anyone help authenticate if this "secret" is valid and why till today, the India government insist in not giving an official response to this particular Report ? :-k

http://thediplomat.com/2014/03/indias-t ... rt-leaked/

India's Top Secret 1962 China War Report Leaked

...The report was written by two officers in the Indian Army: Lieutenant General Henderson Brooks and Brigadier General Premindra Singh Bhagat. Incumbent defense minister A.K. Antony once told Parliament that the report could not be declassified because its contents are ”not only extremely sensitive but are of current operational value.” Indian news outlets have responded with calls for greater transparency on the part of the government, arguing that declassifying the report will allow for a review of past mistakes.

According to Maxwell’s account of the report, the Indian government’s forward policy provoked China into using force against India — something that Nehru and other Indian leaders did not anticipate due to their reliance on outdated intelligence leading up to the start of the conflict.


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Re: South China Sea ruling .....

Postby earthfriendly » Tue, 02 Aug 2016 4:14 pm

The opium wars. Not just one but two opium wars. I find it very inhumane. I am not even worried about the humiliation but rather the inhumanity of hooking an entire (ok, maybe overstatement but a large population) nation on drug addiction. When England, herself, outlawed it. The combatant nature of the westerners of the old days. A disregard and victimization of the other group of human beings that they deemed to be weaker than themselves. So sad and an all-around tragedy :cry: .

Not the end of the story yet. And not just restricted to Britain. Shortly after, the other seven western powers also descended upon China, each trying to dissect and slice up a piece of the pie for themselves. The phrase 八国联军 (Bāguó Liánjūn = eight nation alliance, literally means ganging up of the 8 nations' military forces) was very much alive in the Chinese psyche while I was growing up. Not sure about the present

"Lin Zexu even sent a letter to Queen Victoria pointing out that as England had a ban on the opium trade, they were justified in instituting one too."


http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-bu ... ?page=show

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Re: South China Sea ruling .....

Postby JR8 » Tue, 02 Aug 2016 10:45 pm

There was a world-wide trade in Opium and later heroine.
Scroll about halfway down this page for a pic of a retail bottle of Bayer brand Heroine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium#Reg ... ted_States

The US didn't ban opium until 1905*. I can't see when it was banned in the UK** but thumb through some old magazines from circa 1890-1910 and you might be surprised at the number of ads for 'Dr [x]'s Patent Cough Medicine', fully loaded with opiates. Perhaps it was intended to make customers dependent, who knows.

On which note those 'barbaric Americans' did similar with Coca Cola... if you haven't thought about it guess what it's 'magic ingredient ' was.


* http://www.opioids.com/timeline/
** Perhaps in 1920
'The widespread use of psychoactive drugs (particularly opium) in Victorian Britain affected all classes of society, but their use was not regarded as a serious social and medical problem until the early twentieth century, when doctors began to warn about the dangers of addiction. Ultimately, the use of drugs was banned in Britain by the Dangerous Drugs Act in 1920.'
http://www.victorianweb.org/victorian/s ... tion2.html

and
'When World War I broke out, opium and cocaine were still legal drugs in Britain.
The turning point had come more than a year into the war, says Kohn. There was a fear that the drinking culture was harming the war effort. In 1915 the licensing laws were tightened.
The unintended consequence was to create the conditions for the first underground drug scene in Britain, says Kohn. It criminalised a small number of people in London's theatre district and a scene developed in which opium, cocaine, sex and prostitution overlapped. With so many soldiers passing through London, it was little surprise that emergency regulation to ban drugs soon followed.
The fact that opium and cocaine-dealing were closely identified with the Chinese merely fanned the flames in a war-time atmosphere of general xenophobia, Kohn says
.
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-16681673

How about that, as recently as 1915 the trade in drugs [opiates] in London was 'closely identified with' .... the Chinese!
'Do it or do not do it: You will regret both' - Kierkegaard

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Re: South China Sea ruling .....

Postby earthfriendly » Wed, 03 Aug 2016 12:47 am

Great information. Thank you.

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Re: South China Sea ruling .....

Postby TMD » Sat, 06 Aug 2016 1:40 am

earthfriendly wrote:The opium wars. Not just one but two opium wars. I find it very inhumane. I am not even worried about the humiliation but rather the inhumanity of hooking an entire (ok, maybe overstatement but a large population) nation on drug addiction. When England, herself, outlawed it. The combatant nature of the westerners of the old days. A disregard and victimization of the other group of human beings that they deemed to be weaker than themselves. So sad and an all-around tragedy :cry: .

Not the end of the story yet. And not just restricted to Britain. Shortly after, the other seven western powers also descended upon China, each trying to dissect and slice up a piece of the pie for themselves. The phrase 八国联军 (Bāguó Liánjūn = eight nation alliance, literally means ganging up of the 8 nations' military forces) was very much alive in the Chinese psyche while I was growing up. Not sure about the present

"Lin Zexu even sent a letter to Queen Victoria pointing out that as England had a ban on the opium trade, they were justified in instituting one too."

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-bu ... ?page=show


I counted 5 nations being represented in this 1898 French cartoon - Nearly 40 years after the 2nd Opium War ended in 1860. I supposed Japan was a late comer in the land grab for China in those days...
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Re: South China Sea ruling .....

Postby TMD » Sat, 06 Aug 2016 1:48 am

JR8 wrote:...'When World War I broke out, opium and cocaine were still legal drugs in Britain.
The turning point had come more than a year into the war, says Kohn. There was a fear that the drinking culture was harming the war effort. In 1915 the licensing laws were tightened.
The unintended consequence was to create the conditions for the first underground drug scene in Britain, says Kohn. It criminalised a small number of people in London's theatre district and a scene developed in which opium, cocaine, sex and prostitution overlapped. With so many soldiers passing through London, it was little surprise that emergency regulation to ban drugs soon followed.
The fact that opium and cocaine-dealing were closely identified with the Chinese merely fanned the flames in a war-time atmosphere of general xenophobia, Kohn says
.
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-16681673

How about that, as recently as 1915 the trade in drugs [opiates] in London was 'closely identified with' .... the Chinese!


Wow...didn't know that the yellow-peril fear factor persisted in the English mind post WW1 and long after the end of the Victorian era courtesy of a womaniser Chinese man in London.. :wink:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brilliant_Chang

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Re: South China Sea ruling .....

Postby PNGMK » Sun, 07 Aug 2016 6:19 pm

What an extraordinary story.
I have gay, black, Asian friends and then JR8.

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Re: South China Sea ruling .....

Postby TMD » Mon, 15 Aug 2016 9:51 am

Sometimes, jaw jaw is better than law law.

I was told the PCA tribunal lawyers and court fees were foot fully by none-other than the Manila government. Perhaps someone should have a little more foresight that the dispute can be discussed over a simple lunch hosted by the Chinese.

At least being a guest, Ramos didn't have to pay the bill. :mrgreen:
Last edited by TMD on Mon, 15 Aug 2016 10:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: South China Sea ruling .....

Postby TMD » Mon, 15 Aug 2016 9:56 am

Meetup in HK - Ramos flanked by Fu Ying, the chairwoman of the foreign affairs committee of the National People’s Congress (L) and Dr Wu Shicun, the president of China's National Institute for South China Sea Studies (R).

Philippines wants formal talks to ease tensions with China, says ex-president Ramos
http://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomac ... china-says
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Re: RE: Re: South China Sea ruling .....

Postby ecureilx » Mon, 15 Aug 2016 10:41 am

TMD wrote:Sometimes, jaw jaw is better than law law.

I was told the PCA tribunal lawyers and court fees were foot fully by none-other than the Manila government. Perhaps someone should have a little more foresight that the dispute can be discussed over a simple lunch hosted by the Chinese.

At least being a guest, Ramos didn't have to pay the bill. :mrgreen:


Really ?

When China has made it clear that SCS is theirs, no two way about it, what would any talk with stubborn China bring out ?

See how China responded to the ruling - they called the court as fake !

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Re: RE: Re: South China Sea ruling .....

Postby TMD » Mon, 15 Aug 2016 12:49 pm

ecureilx wrote:
TMD wrote:Sometimes, jaw jaw is better than law law.

I was told the PCA tribunal lawyers and court fees were foot fully by none-other than the Manila government. Perhaps someone should have a little more foresight that the dispute can be discussed over a simple lunch hosted by the Chinese.

At least being a guest, Ramos didn't have to pay the bill. :mrgreen:


Really ?

When China has made it clear that SCS is theirs, no two way about it, what would any talk with stubborn China bring out ? See how China responded to the ruling - they called the court as fake !



I highly doubt China had called the PCA court a "fake". More like accusing the tribunal and its ruling as *illegal* and against UN regulation. From that argument, it is hard not to ignore that UN remains mum over this ruling while in an unusual move its official judicial branch (The ICJ) making clear that they had nothing to do with the court ! :shock:

However, "stubborn" is the right word here to describe the standoff. Perhaps at the end of the day, whoever is in charge of the Philippines government, will ultimately have to meet the Chinese half-way in a Chinese territory , like it or not.

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Re: South China Sea ruling .....

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Mon, 15 Aug 2016 1:29 pm

One thing is for certain. If the 'peens stands down, eventually all of S.E. Asia is in for a rough time as China will extract minerals and forbid fishing in ALL of the South China Sea except for Chinese boats. Air traffic will likely have to eventually rerouted as well. All boats will likely have to pay 'tribute' to pass through her waters. And ASEAN will dissolve as eventually as China expands her borders southward annexing her southern & eastern neighbours (for their protection).

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Re: RE: Re: South China Sea ruling .....

Postby ecureilx » Mon, 15 Aug 2016 2:04 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:One thing is for certain. If the 'peens stands down, eventually all of S.E. Asia is in for a rough time as China will extract minerals and forbid fishing in ALL of the South China Sea except for Chinese boats. Air traffic will likely have to eventually rerouted as well. All boats will likely have to pay 'tribute' to pass through her waters. And ASEAN will dissolve as eventually as China expands her borders southward annexing her southern & eastern neighbours (for their protection).


I do give credit for Filipinos not giving in. The same Filipinos who believe in Marcos 3000 tonne gold as the reason for his wealth etc ...

For once they knew China's talks would be one sided - like SCS is ours, get out ..


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