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UK vote to leave the EU ['BREXIT'] - 23rd June

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Re: UK vote to leave the EU ['BREXIT'] - 23rd June

Postby BBCWatcher » Fri, 03 Jun 2016 10:09 pm

There are no quotas on EU citizen migration within the EU. Freedom of movement is a foundational right within the EU, and it will not be changing. If the U.K. wants quotas on EU citizens then it'll have to vote to leave the EU (and not join the EEA). In that event, if the U.K. institutes quotas, then quotas would be imposed on U.K. citizens attempting to move to the 30-odd EU/EEA countries. (And those quotas could even be zero depending on what the U.K. does.) This cuts both ways.

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Re: UK vote to leave the EU ['BREXIT'] - 23rd June

Postby JR8 » Fri, 03 Jun 2016 10:37 pm

x9200 wrote:I also don't really see any serious tensions because of the inter-EU migration. I don't think, for example, the UK anti-migrant sentiments are based that much on the migrants coming for work, but by the abuse of the welfare system.


Inter-EU immigration works because any cultural differences tend to be minor and nuanced, and apart from maybe noticing a different accent you might not notice such a person is a migrant at all. Besides, such migration has been going on continually since the Roman occupation [16-1700 years ago?]. Subsequently there have been many other waves of immigration. Hugeunot French after the French Revolution. Continental Jews after WW2, Afro-Caribs and Sub-Cons post WW2. Of these subsequent waves, they had to both work and integrate into society to survive - there was no benefits culture.

So when economic migrants arrive and trigger headlines like this, you might imagine how the citizens feel.
'Jobless Somali refugee family who have not worked since arriving in the UK in 2008 are rehoused from their £2m Hampstead council house - into a £1.3m one around the corner'
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -semi.html

IIRC such a move was enforced after a clamp-down, that came after a public outcry. The latter triggered because the vast majority of Britain's will never be able to afford such a home themselves.

And there was another example [Abu Hamza?]. Who together with with family of perhaps 12-14 were housed in what inevitably had to a vast house. In fact the IIRC the council had to join up two semi-detached houses to meet his right to be suitably housed. That was in Chiswick or Ealing, very respectable [$$] areas of West London.
[Hamza was later convicted of being a 'hate preacher', i.e. preaching the destruction the West], who'd fought in the Lebanese civil war and had been a terrorist bomb-maker. It took about 15 years for the due legal process to exhaust itself (at public expense) before he fiiinally got deported back to Lebanon a few years ago. The rest of his family remain in London, living in their grand house at public expense.

There was another case I recall where another economic migrant was housed in Kensington [$$$]. She successfully argued in court that she could not be moved to a cheaper area since she had by then a child in a local school.

And so it goes on and on. None of these people contribute to society, and none of them need to, it's all handed over on a plate.

The reason the x-channel UK immigration post was moved into France [Calais port?] was because, AFAIR:
- Once an economic migrant has a foot on British soil, they can claim asylum and odds on they'll never be forced to leave. 'Everything free for the rest of your life'.
- The channel ports and Eurotunnel terminal [in France] were so swamped with economic migrants trying to smuggle themselves into the UK the services effectively became almost inoperable. At that point even France accepted something had to change.

Why are such people with their suggested skills not content to stop in France, or even more-so Turkey, much more culturally alike where they're from? Simple: the prospect of free money.

A parallel might be, why does Australia turn back boat people? The Americans illegals crossing the southern border, and so on.
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Re: UK vote to leave the EU ['BREXIT'] - 23rd June

Postby JR8 » Fri, 03 Jun 2016 10:49 pm

BBCWatcher wrote:Freedom of movement is a foundational right within the EU, and it will not be changing.

It already has.

'Border Checks Return to Where Europe’s Open Borders Began'
The problems of Europe’s passport-free Schengen zone reached this week all the way back to the place it was born: the Luxembourg village of Schengen.
Soon after the Brussels attacks, locals say they witnessed a jarring sight: blinking blue police lights and a traffic jam on the highway to Germany caused by newly reinstated border controls.
The threat of terrorism is putting further pressure on the system under which, once inside one member state, people can cross unchecked into any of the 25 others. The zone is commonly known as Schengen because the treaty establishing it was signed near the village in 1985.
The zone’s survival was already under threat because of the influx of migrants and refugees that poured into Europe last year, with some countries throwing up fences to stop them and restoring checks at some crossings. On top of the massive numbers, officials worried Islamic State militants and other extremists were slipping in undetected amid the chaos.'
[continues]
http://www.wsj.com/articles/border-chec ... 1458843262

There are are other countries that have re-instituted border controls. And in southern Europe, some have erected vast new razor-wire border fences to try and stem the flow.
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Re: UK vote to leave the EU ['BREXIT'] - 23rd June

Postby calugaruvaxile » Fri, 03 Jun 2016 10:53 pm

BBCWatcher wrote:There are no quotas on EU citizen migration within the EU. Freedom of movement is a foundational right within the EU, and it will not be changing. If the U.K. wants quotas on EU citizens then it'll have to vote to leave the EU (and not join the EEA). In that event, if the U.K. institutes quotas, then quotas would be imposed on U.K. citizens attempting to move to the 30-odd EU/EEA countries. (And those quotas could even be zero depending on what the U.K. does.) This cuts both ways.


this made me laugh a great deal!! right of movement ... a foundational right ...

case study 1: ms papastratos, school teacher in athens - with 15 years of experience - would like to take advantage of this "foundational right". where will ms papastratos find a job as a school teacher?

case study 2: mr jardzinski took the opportunity and moved his whole family in lyon. he is a plumber. i'll stop here. :cool:

yeah, sorry about the thermodynamics paragraph. i always forget that not everyone is an engineer.

you say the wealth inequalities does not represent a problem. that makes me laugh even harder. of course, people in eastern europe are overjoyed to be poor! they have orgasm every day looking at the destroyed industry. and the arab migrants? they surely don't come for money! that's why they all go to a handful of countries and NONE wants to go in the east. they certainly like your beer more!

have you EVER questioned why there are soo many eastern delinquents in the western europe? if no, stop here. if yes, let me tell you a story: you won the cold war. you won it by propaganda. your propaganda was showing to the eastern people how good the life is in the west, and how bad it is in the east (just FYI: in the meantime, the eastern propaganda was showing us western unemployment and drug addicts). voice of america, radio free europe ... they were all saying "come join us, in the club of free people, and you will live like us!". and everyone believed. communism was overthrown. everyone expected investors to come, economy to be rebuilt ... none of these happened, except a handful of cases. the more you go to the east, the worse it gets. all the prices were "aligned" to the EU standards. the incomes didn't follow. but people remembered propaganda!! oooh, they did! and they said "ok, if the wealthy life won't come to us, we'll go there". some had good qualifications (and somehow made it) but most were rejected. or proposed low wages. which were far less than what the propaganda promised. so they started to steal their income :mrgreen:

yes, dismiss my story from your high chair. you don't like it. as you don't like the stories about the arab migrants raping and bombing. it doesn't matter. sooner or later, the reality will bite your butt through the high chair.

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Re: UK vote to leave the EU ['BREXIT'] - 23rd June

Postby x9200 » Sat, 04 Jun 2016 7:48 am

BBCWatcher wrote:There are no quotas on EU citizen migration within the EU. Freedom of movement is a foundational right within the EU, and it will not be changing.

My remark on quotas was not about the inter EU migration but the refugee crisis.
Besides, for a No of countries that joined EU there were provisions effectively blocking this freedom of movement for a number of years.

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Re: UK vote to leave the EU ['BREXIT'] - 23rd June

Postby BBCWatcher » Sat, 04 Jun 2016 8:09 am

Non-EU migration is not on the ballot except that leaving the EU might make it harder, not easier, for the U.K. to reduce non-EU migration.

Is this really so hard to understand? An asylum seeker from Somalia, for example, can and will seek asylum in the U.K. no matter what EU membership status the U.K. has. There is no connection here (except a few examples like cooperation with France in Calais). If you hate non-EU migrants then you should be voting to remain.

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Re: UK vote to leave the EU ['BREXIT'] - 23rd June

Postby x9200 » Sat, 04 Jun 2016 9:19 am

What do you mean is not on the ballot?

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Re: UK vote to leave the EU ['BREXIT'] - 23rd June

Postby x9200 » Sat, 04 Jun 2016 10:11 am

calugaruvaxile wrote:
BBCWatcher wrote:There are no quotas on EU citizen migration within the EU. Freedom of movement is a foundational right within the EU, and it will not be changing. If the U.K. wants quotas on EU citizens then it'll have to vote to leave the EU (and not join the EEA). In that event, if the U.K. institutes quotas, then quotas would be imposed on U.K. citizens attempting to move to the 30-odd EU/EEA countries. (And those quotas could even be zero depending on what the U.K. does.) This cuts both ways.


this made me laugh a great deal!! right of movement ... a foundational right ...

case study 1: ms papastratos, school teacher in athens - with 15 years of experience - would like to take advantage of this "foundational right". where will ms papastratos find a job as a school teacher?

case study 2: mr jardzinski took the opportunity and moved his whole family in lyon. he is a plumber. i'll stop here. :cool:

yeah, sorry about the thermodynamics paragraph. i always forget that not everyone is an engineer.

you say the wealth inequalities does not represent a problem. that makes me laugh even harder. of course, people in eastern europe are overjoyed to be poor! they have orgasm every day looking at the destroyed industry. and the arab migrants? they surely don't come for money! that's why they all go to a handful of countries and NONE wants to go in the east. they certainly like your beer more!

have you EVER questioned why there are soo many eastern delinquents in the western europe? if no, stop here. if yes, let me tell you a story: you won the cold war. you won it by propaganda. your propaganda was showing to the eastern people how good the life is in the west, and how bad it is in the east (just FYI: in the meantime, the eastern propaganda was showing us western unemployment and drug addicts). voice of america, radio free europe ... they were all saying "come join us, in the club of free people, and you will live like us!". and everyone believed. communism was overthrown. everyone expected investors to come, economy to be rebuilt ... none of these happened, except a handful of cases. the more you go to the east, the worse it gets. all the prices were "aligned" to the EU standards. the incomes didn't follow. but people remembered propaganda!! oooh, they did! and they said "ok, if the wealthy life won't come to us, we'll go there". some had good qualifications (and somehow made it) but most were rejected. or proposed low wages. which were far less than what the propaganda promised. so they started to steal their income :mrgreen:

yes, dismiss my story from your high chair. you don't like it. as you don't like the stories about the arab migrants raping and bombing. it doesn't matter. sooner or later, the reality will bite your butt through the high chair.

Hey man, your style to ridicule your opponents is not particularly nice. Now I think you should ask yourself this question, do I really want to discuss topics this way? You know, after your spectacular failure with the CPF system gaming you are rather vulnerable. And talking about high chair, do you really need to suggest I can not follow your thermodynamics analogies? You are that smart and wise in this discussion? You are not even smart enough to notice I am an EE.

Leaving aside the half-truths your message is full of, what is really striking is how deeply you are impregnated with the communistic mentality. Unconditional wealth distribution regardless effort and work quality (except for the top party members, here the equity ends). With your alleged or suggested EE experience, are you really that blind to miss this elephant, that such unconditional wealth equity was what the EE already experienced? This was exactly the wealth distribution you are dreaming of. Hopefully will never happen again. I am old enough to remember it first hand, how old are you? I also wander what makes you feel entitled to the wealth some other people worked hard to achieve?

Edited to add some comments on your examples given to BBW. Ms Papastratos is free to move any place within EU she wants but to get a job to pay for her living, as anywhere else in the world she needs some skills. If Ms P is good in teaching perhaps she can also learn German? There is huge demand for teachers in Germany.
Hey, look here:
https://translate.google.com.sg/transla ... t=&act=url

Dresden. Kultusministerin Brunhild Kurth (CDU) wants teachers from Poland and the Czech Republic at Saxon schools. "There are highly trained teachers with excellent knowledge of German, which can be very pleased to do our Saxon schools service", Kurth said Thursday in Parliament.

See, these are not teachers of German in the Czech Republic or Poland, they are all sort of teachers who can speak German. Wake up man, nothing is for free, you have to have the skills to move around and be looked for in the job market. Nobody is going to pay you for just being a post-commie with the communistic mentality. Tell this to your Ms P. In the meantime Mr J in Lyon is doing fine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Plumber

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Re: UK vote to leave the EU ['BREXIT'] - 23rd June

Postby BBCWatcher » Sat, 04 Jun 2016 3:22 pm

x9200 wrote:What do you mean is not on the ballot?

Non-EU migration into the United Kingdom has very little to do with EU membership, so it's not on the referendum ballot. The only question on the ballot is whether the United Kingdom will leave the European Union or remain.

To the extent there is a connection, EU membership tends to hold down non-EU migration into the United Kingdom. The best example of that is the situation in Calais. France, the United Kingdom's EU partner, currently welcomes the U.K. Border Force to help patrol the Calais border crossing (the French side of the Channel Tunnel), in Calais. The U.K. Border Force stops non-EU migrants in Calais, before they get into the Channel Tunnel. Since they never step foot in the United Kingdom, they don't have the opportunity to make asylum claims there -- or to move there clandestinely. (They can make asylum claims in France, but many prefer the United Kingdom.) There are thousands of migrants living and waiting in the Calais Jungle. Some of them have attempted to hop aboard lorries (trucks) multiple times. A few get through, but the U.K. Border Force is very effective in keeping most of them in Calais.

If the United Kingdom votes to leave the European Union then France has threatened to end that agreement and kick the U.K. Border Force officers out of France. In that event, non-EU migrants would get through the Channel Tunnel in much greater numbers and then apply for asylum in the United Kingdom (or simply live in the U.K. clandestinely). So if you want more non-EU migrants in the United Kingdom, then probably you should vote to leave the European Union. You'll make that particular outcome more likely.

There seems to be quite a lot of confusion in this thread about this point. Of course anti-immigration sentiment isn't necessarily rational.

EU membership has a great impact on EU migration. Danes, Slovakians, Spanish, and Latvian citizens (to pick some examples), and their spouses and children, currently have the right to live, work, study, and retire in the United Kingdom, just as U.K. citizens have the right to live, work, study, and retire in the 30-odd EU/EEA countries. (They don't have a right to move to the United Kingdom and become public burdens, or vice versa. It's a limited right, not a completely unrestricted one.) If the United Kingdom votes to remain in the EU, that reciprocal arrangement will continue. If the United Kingdom votes to leave, it's at least likely that arrangement would end. EU/EEA citizens probably would not have a treaty right of abode in the United Kingdom, and U.K. citizens probably would not have a treaty right of abode in those 30-odd EU/EEA countries. A vote to leave would have a much bigger immigration impact on U.K. citizens -- their visa free world would shrink, dramatically. For EU citizens there'd be very little change. Only the United Kingdom would drop off the EU/EEA map.

The European Union currently has a land area of approximately 4.325 million square kilometers. The United Kingdom has a land area of approximately 243,610 square kilometers. If the United Kingdom leaves then the EU would shrink by about 5.6%. EU citizens would still have the right to live, work, study, and retire in the remaining 94.4% of the EU's current land area. (Plus the EEA countries, so it's actually an even smaller reduction.) On the other hand, U.K. citizens would see a reduction of 94.4% -- exactly the opposite side of this equation. Potentially, probably, no more retiring in Spain, no more working in Frankfurt, no more studying in Paris -- not without limited visas and quotas, on an equal priority basis with Canadians and Japanese to pick a couple examples. That's what a leave vote could mean if you're a U.K. citizen. In land area terms it would be roughly like Californians not being able to live, work, study, and retire in any of the other 49 U.S. states -- it would be that big an impact to the rights U.K. citizens currently enjoy and that about 1.2 million of them currently exercise.

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Re: UK vote to leave the EU ['BREXIT'] - 23rd June

Postby JR8 » Sat, 04 Jun 2016 5:23 pm

Wading through the propaganda...

BBCW: A vote to leave would have a much bigger immigration impact on U.K. citizens -- their visa free world would shrink, dramatically....

Perhaps you could provide some typical examples of what the impact would be, as I don't see any 'dramatic' impact for the vast majority of citizens.
We didn't need 'visas' to visit most of Europe even before we joined the EEC in 1973. We still have to queue at Passport Control at EU borders today, just no entry/exit stamps [i.e. not visas] are put in one's passport. If you were British or even European you'd know this.

BBCW: EU citizens would still have the right to live, work, study, and retire in the remaining 94.4% of the EU's current land area. ...On the other hand, U.K. citizens would see a reduction of 94.4% -- exactly the opposite side of this equation.

You seem to overlook that that the theoretical right to study, work, live in the rest of the EU is irrelevant to 99.99% of Brits. I've only met one Brit who went abroad to study in Europe, my paternal grand-mother, to a convent in Belgium. That was before World War 1, before the '''necessity''' of the EU had even come about. I do not know a single other person who has studied in the EU (nor has wished to).
I know one person who went to work from the UK to the EU. He worked in a bank in Frankfurt, IIRC his family were of German background.
I know several Brits who have gone to work in Switzerland, including a cousin of mine. But Switzerland is not in the EU. Ironic.
Live/retire. I have known a few people with holiday homes in the EU, one still. They're holiday homes, I don't know anyone who has chosen to retire in the EU. There are some British retirement enclaves in the EU, notably in Spain, but these go waaay back, certainly prior to the EU's Schengen Agreement.

BBW: Potentially, probably, no more retiring in Spain, no more working in Frankfurt, no more studying in Paris -- .... That's what a leave vote could mean if you're a U.K. citizen.

Well quite, even if your 'potentially, probably' assertions were true, it would impact very few people. Whereas the benefits of leaving are far more tangible; not sending net billions to the EU each month; the freedom from EU law-making; and freedom from being dictated to by Germany/France, and so on. This is after all why the BREXIT vote is in the lead, the citizens are fully aware of all of the pros and cons.
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Re: UK vote to leave the EU ['BREXIT'] - 23rd June

Postby BBCWatcher » Sat, 04 Jun 2016 6:12 pm

JR8 wrote:We didn't need 'visas' to visit most of Europe even before we joined the EEC in 1973.

Turkish citizens currently need visas to visit EU countries. (There is a live debate whether to change that in return for Turkey's assistance with refugees.) What makes you think a U.K. exit would mean visa free access to EU countries? That'd be subject to negotiation with no guarantees.

There are visas and there are visas. It's entirely possible, even probable, that U.K. citizens would not need visas to visit as tourists but would need visas to immigrate to EU countries if the U.K. leaves the EU. All of this would be subject to negotiation with no guarantees.

The United Kingdom would most likely be in an extremely weak negotiating position.

You seem to overlook that that the theoretical right to study, work, live in the rest of the EU is irrelevant to 99.99% of Brits.

Your math is way, way off. According to census data about 2% of U.K. citizens currently, at this instant, live in other EU countries. It's not "theoretical." It's quite real. The percentage is significantly greater when considering lifetime experiences, and the percentage is growing over time -- or would grow if the U.K. remains in the EU. (The referendum is about the future, not the past.)

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Re: UK vote to leave the EU ['BREXIT'] - 23rd June

Postby JR8 » Sun, 05 Jun 2016 2:31 am

BBCWatcher wrote:
JR8 wrote:We didn't need 'visas' to visit most of Europe even before we joined the EEC in 1973.

Turkish citizens currently need visas to visit EU countries. (There is a live debate whether to change that in return for Turkey's assistance with refugees.) What makes you think a U.K. exit would mean visa free access to EU countries? That'd be subject to negotiation with no guarantees.


And why not, after all Turkey isn’t in Europe? Nor are they a member of the EU. Many countries outside the EU need visas to access Europe.
The point you skirted was that we, Brits, didn’t need ‘visas’ to travel in Europe before we joined the EEC [precursor to the EU]. Hence you’re suggesting we’ll somehow be cast back into dark times and conditions worse than when we joined the EEC ‘trade block’ in 1973. Hello!: The majority of people do not believe this, and hence are not voting in fear that way.
Errr... unexpected how you turned ‘we’ [EEC] didn’t need visas, into Turks [non EEC] ‘need and want’... perhaps a sign of how desperate you are to try and make a point, as not many people in the EU care or even note what 'the Turks want’. And what can we expect next from your propaganda mill; we’ll be impoverished, WW3 will ensue? Yes yes, we’ve heard it all before.


BBCWatcher wrote:There are visas and there are visas. It's entirely possible, even probable, that U.K. citizens would not need visas to visit as tourists but would need visas to immigrate to EU countries if the U.K. leaves the EU. All of this would be subject to negotiation with no guarantees.


‘Possible/probable/maybe’. The opinion polls speak of how people feel about this, and they don’t care. This argument is as lame as say ‘You might not be able to continue to buy duty free at a channel port’...


BBCWatcher wrote:The United Kingdom would most likely be in an extremely weak negotiating position.


If that is so why has the EU come to this, do you think? Aren’t we supposed to be some post-conflict brotherhood of equal nations? So why the malevolent exertion [and extortion] of unilateral power, in punishment for not obediently doing what we are ordered?

JR8 wrote:You seem to overlook that the theoretical right to study, work, live in the rest of the EU is irrelevant to 99.99% of Brits.

BBCWatcher wrote:Your math is way, way off. According to census data about 2% of U.K. citizens currently, at this instant, live in other EU countries. It's not "theoretical." It's quite real. The percentage is significantly greater when considering lifetime experiences, and the percentage is growing over time -- or would grow if the U.K. remains in the EU. (The referendum is about the future, not the past.)


2%, below any level of statistical significance. And more than 2% of the UK population will be from the EU originally and likely have inherited property there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign-b ... ed_Kingdom

Most Brits will never wish to work live nor retire in the EU. Instead, they have to submit to the reciprocal rights. The equation doesn’t stack up. That’s why Brits right now are polling for a BREXIT.
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Re: UK vote to leave the EU ['BREXIT'] - 23rd June

Postby JR8 » Sun, 05 Jun 2016 2:35 am

Germany conflicted on how to handle Brexit...
The rise of the right has been seen in Germany too. The Alternative for Germany (AFD) is only three years old but did well in regional elections.
Beatrix Von Storch, party vice chair and an MEP, tells me if the UK votes to leave it would be bad for Germany in one way - it would pick up the tab if our contributions disappeared.
But she adds: "It would be good if you leave just to show you can survive. We're told no one can live without the European Union - you cant trade, you can't travel, everything will break down and the UK will go bankrupt in a month or two.
[continues]
http://www.bbc.com/news/explainers-36419849

The threats remind me of you... no one believes them ;)
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Re: UK vote to leave the EU ['BREXIT'] - 23rd June

Postby x9200 » Sun, 05 Jun 2016 7:13 am

I agree with JR8 on this one and I also don't see the UK position that weak at the negotiation table. The basic question to be asked here is, how many of the EU expats reside in the UK at the moment.

A spot on article for this part of the discussion:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05 ... or-expats/

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Re: UK vote to leave the EU ['BREXIT'] - 23rd June

Postby BBCWatcher » Sun, 05 Jun 2016 9:07 am

JR8 wrote:And why not, after all Turkey isn’t in Europe?

About 23,764 square kilometers of Turkey is within continental Europe. About 6.8 square kilometers of the United Kingdom is (Gibraltar).

Nor are they a member of the EU. Many countries outside the EU need visas to access Europe.

And that's what the United Kingdom is voting on!

The point you skirted was that we, Brits, didn’t need ‘visas’ to travel in Europe before we joined the EEC [precursor to the EU]. Hence you’re suggesting we’ll somehow be cast back into dark times and conditions worse than when we joined the EEC ‘trade block’ in 1973.

No, I said there are no guarantees. All bets are off. EEA membership (for example) is not on the ballot. Leaving the EU can take many forms/any form, subject to negotiation -- and not a strong negotiating position for the United Kingdom.

This argument is as lame as say ‘You might not be able to continue to buy duty free at a channel port’...

Loss of freedom of movement is not going to be "lame" if it happens.

If that is so why has the EU come to this, do you think? Aren’t we supposed to be some post-conflict brotherhood of equal nations?

Divorce has consequences, often messy.

Lots of things aren't on the referendum ballot. A neat and tidy divorce, with every positive outcome that the United Kingdom could ever want, isn't on the ballot either.

2%, below any level of statistical significance. And more than 2% of the UK population will be from the EU originally and likely have inherited property there.

No, and no, I'm adjusting for such effects. It's a large number, and it's getting larger.

Most Brits will never wish to work live nor retire in the EU.

Correct, but many will, more over time. And most residents of the United Kingdom aren't EU citizens. Reciprocity cuts both ways, and so does the magnitude of that reciprocity. Slightly over 2 million EU citizens currently reside in the United Kingdom -- about 3% of the population. (Some percentage of them and their future peers -- same and opposite sex spouses of U.K. citizens with sufficient income/wealth, notably -- will continue to be able to reside in the United Kingdom even if the U.K. votes to leave the European Union and if/when freedom of movement rights end.)

So does the United Kingdom want to trade this 3% for their 2% (current moment in time basis)? Interesting question! That's a question on the ballot. On a territorial basis the loss would be much greater for U.K. citizens -- the world shrinks, a lot. For EU citizens, not so much.


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