Inter-EU immigration works because any cultural differences tend to be minor and nuanced, and apart from maybe noticing a different accent you might not notice such a person is a migrant at all. Besides, such migration has been going on continually since the Roman occupation [16-1700 years ago?]. Subsequently there have been many other waves of immigration. Hugeunot French after the French Revolution. Continental Jews after WW2, Afro-Caribs and Sub-Cons post WW2. Of these subsequent waves, they had to both work and integrate into society to survive - there was no benefits culture.x9200 wrote:I also don't really see any serious tensions because of the inter-EU migration. I don't think, for example, the UK anti-migrant sentiments are based that much on the migrants coming for work, but by the abuse of the welfare system.
It already has.BBCWatcher wrote:Freedom of movement is a foundational right within the EU, and it will not be changing.
this made me laugh a great deal!! right of movement ... a foundational right ...BBCWatcher wrote:There are no quotas on EU citizen migration within the EU. Freedom of movement is a foundational right within the EU, and it will not be changing. If the U.K. wants quotas on EU citizens then it'll have to vote to leave the EU (and not join the EEA). In that event, if the U.K. institutes quotas, then quotas would be imposed on U.K. citizens attempting to move to the 30-odd EU/EEA countries. (And those quotas could even be zero depending on what the U.K. does.) This cuts both ways.
My remark on quotas was not about the inter EU migration but the refugee crisis.BBCWatcher wrote:There are no quotas on EU citizen migration within the EU. Freedom of movement is a foundational right within the EU, and it will not be changing.
Hey man, your style to ridicule your opponents is not particularly nice. Now I think you should ask yourself this question, do I really want to discuss topics this way? You know, after your spectacular failure with the CPF system gaming you are rather vulnerable. And talking about high chair, do you really need to suggest I can not follow your thermodynamics analogies? You are that smart and wise in this discussion? You are not even smart enough to notice I am an EE.calugaruvaxile wrote:this made me laugh a great deal!! right of movement ... a foundational right ...BBCWatcher wrote:There are no quotas on EU citizen migration within the EU. Freedom of movement is a foundational right within the EU, and it will not be changing. If the U.K. wants quotas on EU citizens then it'll have to vote to leave the EU (and not join the EEA). In that event, if the U.K. institutes quotas, then quotas would be imposed on U.K. citizens attempting to move to the 30-odd EU/EEA countries. (And those quotas could even be zero depending on what the U.K. does.) This cuts both ways.
case study 1: ms papastratos, school teacher in athens - with 15 years of experience - would like to take advantage of this "foundational right". where will ms papastratos find a job as a school teacher?
case study 2: mr jardzinski took the opportunity and moved his whole family in lyon. he is a plumber. i'll stop here.![]()
yeah, sorry about the thermodynamics paragraph. i always forget that not everyone is an engineer.
you say the wealth inequalities does not represent a problem. that makes me laugh even harder. of course, people in eastern europe are overjoyed to be poor! they have orgasm every day looking at the destroyed industry. and the arab migrants? they surely don't come for money! that's why they all go to a handful of countries and NONE wants to go in the east. they certainly like your beer more!
have you EVER questioned why there are soo many eastern delinquents in the western europe? if no, stop here. if yes, let me tell you a story: you won the cold war. you won it by propaganda. your propaganda was showing to the eastern people how good the life is in the west, and how bad it is in the east (just FYI: in the meantime, the eastern propaganda was showing us western unemployment and drug addicts). voice of america, radio free europe ... they were all saying "come join us, in the club of free people, and you will live like us!". and everyone believed. communism was overthrown. everyone expected investors to come, economy to be rebuilt ... none of these happened, except a handful of cases. the more you go to the east, the worse it gets. all the prices were "aligned" to the EU standards. the incomes didn't follow. but people remembered propaganda!! oooh, they did! and they said "ok, if the wealthy life won't come to us, we'll go there". some had good qualifications (and somehow made it) but most were rejected. or proposed low wages. which were far less than what the propaganda promised. so they started to steal their income![]()
yes, dismiss my story from your high chair. you don't like it. as you don't like the stories about the arab migrants raping and bombing. it doesn't matter. sooner or later, the reality will bite your butt through the high chair.
Non-EU migration into the United Kingdom has very little to do with EU membership, so it's not on the referendum ballot. The only question on the ballot is whether the United Kingdom will leave the European Union or remain.x9200 wrote:What do you mean is not on the ballot?
Turkish citizens currently need visas to visit EU countries. (There is a live debate whether to change that in return for Turkey's assistance with refugees.) What makes you think a U.K. exit would mean visa free access to EU countries? That'd be subject to negotiation with no guarantees.JR8 wrote:We didn't need 'visas' to visit most of Europe even before we joined the EEC in 1973.
Your math is way, way off. According to census data about 2% of U.K. citizens currently, at this instant, live in other EU countries. It's not "theoretical." It's quite real. The percentage is significantly greater when considering lifetime experiences, and the percentage is growing over time -- or would grow if the U.K. remains in the EU. (The referendum is about the future, not the past.)You seem to overlook that that the theoretical right to study, work, live in the rest of the EU is irrelevant to 99.99% of Brits.
And why not, after all Turkey isn’t in Europe? Nor are they a member of the EU. Many countries outside the EU need visas to access Europe.BBCWatcher wrote:Turkish citizens currently need visas to visit EU countries. (There is a live debate whether to change that in return for Turkey's assistance with refugees.) What makes you think a U.K. exit would mean visa free access to EU countries? That'd be subject to negotiation with no guarantees.JR8 wrote:We didn't need 'visas' to visit most of Europe even before we joined the EEC in 1973.
‘Possible/probable/maybe’. The opinion polls speak of how people feel about this, and they don’t care. This argument is as lame as say ‘You might not be able to continue to buy duty free at a channel port’...BBCWatcher wrote:There are visas and there are visas. It's entirely possible, even probable, that U.K. citizens would not need visas to visit as tourists but would need visas to immigrate to EU countries if the U.K. leaves the EU. All of this would be subject to negotiation with no guarantees.
If that is so why has the EU come to this, do you think? Aren’t we supposed to be some post-conflict brotherhood of equal nations? So why the malevolent exertion [and extortion] of unilateral power, in punishment for not obediently doing what we are ordered?BBCWatcher wrote:The United Kingdom would most likely be in an extremely weak negotiating position.
JR8 wrote:You seem to overlook that the theoretical right to study, work, live in the rest of the EU is irrelevant to 99.99% of Brits.
2%, below any level of statistical significance. And more than 2% of the UK population will be from the EU originally and likely have inherited property there.BBCWatcher wrote:Your math is way, way off. According to census data about 2% of U.K. citizens currently, at this instant, live in other EU countries. It's not "theoretical." It's quite real. The percentage is significantly greater when considering lifetime experiences, and the percentage is growing over time -- or would grow if the U.K. remains in the EU. (The referendum is about the future, not the past.)
About 23,764 square kilometers of Turkey is within continental Europe. About 6.8 square kilometers of the United Kingdom is (Gibraltar).JR8 wrote:And why not, after all Turkey isn’t in Europe?
And that's what the United Kingdom is voting on!Nor are they a member of the EU. Many countries outside the EU need visas to access Europe.
No, I said there are no guarantees. All bets are off. EEA membership (for example) is not on the ballot. Leaving the EU can take many forms/any form, subject to negotiation -- and not a strong negotiating position for the United Kingdom.The point you skirted was that we, Brits, didn’t need ‘visas’ to travel in Europe before we joined the EEC [precursor to the EU]. Hence you’re suggesting we’ll somehow be cast back into dark times and conditions worse than when we joined the EEC ‘trade block’ in 1973.
Loss of freedom of movement is not going to be "lame" if it happens.This argument is as lame as say ‘You might not be able to continue to buy duty free at a channel port’...
Divorce has consequences, often messy.If that is so why has the EU come to this, do you think? Aren’t we supposed to be some post-conflict brotherhood of equal nations?
No, and no, I'm adjusting for such effects. It's a large number, and it's getting larger.2%, below any level of statistical significance. And more than 2% of the UK population will be from the EU originally and likely have inherited property there.
Correct, but many will, more over time. And most residents of the United Kingdom aren't EU citizens. Reciprocity cuts both ways, and so does the magnitude of that reciprocity. Slightly over 2 million EU citizens currently reside in the United Kingdom -- about 3% of the population. (Some percentage of them and their future peers -- same and opposite sex spouses of U.K. citizens with sufficient income/wealth, notably -- will continue to be able to reside in the United Kingdom even if the U.K. votes to leave the European Union and if/when freedom of movement rights end.)Most Brits will never wish to work live nor retire in the EU.
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