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UK vote to leave the EU ['BREXIT'] - 23rd June

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Re: UK vote to leave the EU ['BREXIT'] - 23rd June

Postby JR8 » Thu, 12 May 2016 4:21 pm

the lynx wrote:I have nothing to contribute anyway.


I don't know about that.
Howzabout considering this - 'Should wet-market stall holders be legally obliged to mark their products in four languages'?
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Re: UK vote to leave the EU ['BREXIT'] - 23rd June

Postby the lynx » Thu, 12 May 2016 5:12 pm

JR8 wrote:
the lynx wrote:I have nothing to contribute anyway.


I don't know about that.
Howzabout considering this - 'Should wet-market stall holders be legally obliged to mark their products in four languages'?


Blimey! In UK? English, Arabic, Hindi, what's the fourth one? Chinese?

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Re: UK vote to leave the EU ['BREXIT'] - 23rd June

Postby BBCWatcher » Thu, 12 May 2016 5:23 pm

JR8 wrote:The trader is free to trade with whomever he wants, he's not obliged 'to be polite' nor obliged to sell anything if he chooses not to.

No, that's not how it works. When you open a shop, you have a very few rules to follow. As one example, if an Asian customer walks into your store (or stops by your stall), you must serve that customer without discrimination.

So if somebody from...well, anywhere, really, wants 500 grams of carrots, and if you sell carrots, you, the seller, are obliged to have a welcome mat for metric. The U.K. government has a reasonable state interest in making sure that all consumers, young and old, even those among the 440 million people who live in the European Union who visit Newcastle (without visas now or with visas later -- it doesn't matter), can function as consumers -- and that businesses, big and small, have a level, competitive playing field in this regard. Common weights and measures are fundamental to commerce, yes even within a half mile (or one kilometer) trading area. That's a cost of doing business, already borne. And it's a very British decision, already well decided before the EU was born. Welcome to the distant past. (And if this is the best argument for "Leave," then I congratulate the "Remain" side already. It's exceedingly unlikely the United Kingdom would reverse a Thatcher-era decision on metric even if Leave wins. This happened back when there were only three television channels to watch -- it's that long ago.)

Fortunately the United Kingdom has a serious advantage within and beyond the European Union should she choose to remain: English. English is the #1 language used when speakers don't share common native languages. Shopkeepers are free to add other languages to their signs if they wish, and often that's a good idea, but the likelihood of a legal requirement to do so is vanishingly remote given the global preeminence of English.

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Re: UK vote to leave the EU ['BREXIT'] - 23rd June

Postby x9200 » Thu, 12 May 2016 5:43 pm

JR8 wrote:
x9200 wrote:To have a common unit system over a common trade area is just logical and pragmatic, even a must if there is a freedom of movement and residence involved. Of course, if an individual country wants still to use their own system, it should be allowed, but the other, common system should be used in parallel.


Ah but a street-market's 'trade area' might be a 1/2 mile radius (miles, there I go again, I better add that that's 805 Metres, just in case some clipboard wielding apparatchik from the council decides to prosecute me ;)). The traders have chosen a system that works for them, and works for their customers. They're not looking to export into the EU. It's about as silly as suggesting the signs on their products should be labelled in every EU language. Perhaps the stall-holders would legally have to speak every EU language just in case a foreigner shows up. Perhaps they should be forced to accept Euros too, so as not to alienate any of our friends from the continent who wonder down that way.

Is it really a big problem for the majority? There is always some damage for anything done on a more massive scale. Those cases you quoted, is their number really significant or they are just audible, isolated cases used by the populist? You know, this kind of rhetorics can be used with practically any change but for most people, having a common system within any type of the union is nothing but natural.
x9200 wrote:It is sort of like one would like to visit France but the French would only accept your passport if it was in French, in China in Chinese and in Hungary in Hungarian. Fortunately, the passports follow some common standards and use multiple languages for marking/labelling. An unification is needed for any unions involving 2 or more parties so hard to blame EU for this one.

The problem is that EU laws like this are a blanket requirement. They apply to street traders in the same way they apply to MNCs. The later have the pricing-power to pass the added costs on to their customers. Just having to buy a new/metric set of scales would made a large hole in most street-traders returns.

True it's a blanketed requirement, but there are typically grace periods and I feel you exaggerating a bit with this large hole. Please, tell me some number and again, what fraction of the traders is really affected?

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Re: UK vote to leave the EU ['BREXIT'] - 23rd June

Postby JR8 » Thu, 12 May 2016 6:25 pm

the lynx wrote:Howzabout considering this - 'Should wet-market stall holders be legally obliged to mark their products in four languages'?

Blimey! In UK? English, Arabic, Hindi, what's the fourth one? Chinese?[/quote]

Something like that. But it gets better, or worse: What if that law derived not from the SGn government, but from a future ASEAN supra-national government (that most SGn people don't want be a part of anyway) dominated by, effectively led by, Jakarta, KL or where-ever?
Or should the stall-holder be free to mark his goods as he wishes; as best suits him and his customers?

[And to take it on to the next level on the perversity scale...
What if when you visit other ASEAN countries you noticed that this law applies equally there, but you're surprised that none of the stall-holders comply with it, and the government who aren't as ruthlessly efficient as that in SG, in fact don't really care much to enforce it.]

It seems perverse to even suggest such a question [para 1], but such perversity is why so many people loath the EU. Matters like weights+measures are within context perhaps relatively minor, but the latest polling shows the BREXIT vote this week running at 43% - ie. to leave the EU in it's entirety.
https://ig.ft.com/sites/brexit-polling/

--- Meanwhile in the latest 'EU success of the day' story, membership of the Euro has now got Italy down on it's knees and in a one-way death-spiral.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/201 ... -survival/?
'Italy must choose between the euro and its own economic survival'
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Re: UK vote to leave the EU ['BREXIT'] - 23rd June

Postby JR8 » Thu, 12 May 2016 9:36 pm

BBCWatcher wrote:
JR8 wrote:The trader is free to trade with whomever he wants, he's not obliged 'to be polite' nor obliged to sell anything if he chooses not to.

No, that's not how it works. When you open a shop, you have a very few rules to follow. As one example, if an Asian customer walks into your store (or stops by your stall), you must serve that customer without discrimination.


No, that's incorrect. A vendor is not obliged to sell a product if he chooses not too. Displaying products for sale is an invitation to negotiate a binding contract for sale, in legal terminology an 'invitation to treat', it does not guarantee that a sale will or must occur at the indicated price.

I have only ever encountered this matter in real life once. Some friends and I were shopping in a small supermarket in Holland Park, London. We were buying the F+B needed for a party we were holding. This was 30yrs ago but in outline it went like this.
We parked outside, went into the shop and headed for the beer aisle. We were stunned to see that cans of Stella were priced up at 18p, amazing since they'd usually cost about 80p. Indeed the price on the shelf was 80p, but the lables on the individual cans said 18p. Someone had clearly screwed up there. I put a couple of cases into the trolley and headed straight for the cashier, trying my best to keep a straight face. Remarkably enough the cashier rung them up at 18p and we were on our way home - :cool: Before we even got there we realised we'd struck something of a beer-klondike, and we U-turned and headed straight back to the shop. This time we loaded up a few more cases and headed for the cashier [more straight-faces/acting chilled etc].
Cashier: I'm sorry but that price is wrong, it should be 80p.
Me: But the lable says 18p
Cashier: The lable is wrong, they're 80p
Me: [roughly] But it says 18p and you have to sell them at the marked price
Cashier: No I don't, I don't have to sell them at all if I don't want to.


She could refuse to agree the sale, to complete the contract, but she could not reverse the earlier completed contract/sale.

And as for the matter of race, I don't think it comes into it. However if a customer was refused a sale and believed it to be a racially discriminatory decision then I imagine they'd be at liberty to initiate legal action.

cf.

Harvey v Facey
Facts
'Harvey v Facey [1893] UKPC 1, [1893] AC 552 is a contract law case decided by the United Kingdom Judicial Committee of the Privy Council which in 1893 held final legal jurisdiction over most of the British Caribbean.[1] Its importance in case law is that it defined the difference between an offer and supply of information. The Privy Council held that indication of lowest acceptable price does not constitute an offer to sell. Rather, it is considered an offer to treat (i.e., to enter into negotiations).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvey_v_Facey

and

Offer
An offer is a definite undertaking with the intention that it shall become legally binding when the person to whom it is made accepts it. In working out if a communication is an offer or not, the following are considered:
An invitation to treat is not an offer. An invitation to treat can include putting goods on display in a shop (but putting them on display in a vending machine is an offer), publishing a catalogue or price list, advertising an auction or putting a "For Sale" sign on your house or car.
An offer can be made to a specific person or persons, a class of persons or the whole world. The offer can only be accepted by someone to whom it was made. For example, if I offer to sell my car for $5,000 to Jim then only Jim can accept it, if Tony "accepts" it there is no contract.
An offer must be communicated to the person(s) for whom it is intended. Duh.
An offer can be revoked before it is accepted.

http://law.stackexchange.com/questions/ ... o-be-valid
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Re: UK vote to leave the EU ['BREXIT'] - 23rd June

Postby JR8 » Thu, 12 May 2016 10:07 pm

x9200 wrote:True it's a blanketed requirement, but there are typically grace periods and I feel you exaggerating a bit with this large hole. Please, tell me some number and again, what fraction of the traders is really affected?


Those market traders work on thin-margins, that's why their stalls are so popular, they're much cheaper than going to supermarkets. How much do commercial-grade scales cost, ones good enough to be licensed as fit by the local council Trading Standards dept, no idea, but I bet they aren't cheap. Either way it was enough to motivate the Metric Martyrs to take their case all the way to court in Europe. They didn't do that because they were only slightly upset or inconvenienced :)

I'd estimate that currently in the UK people are as familiar with the term Metric Martyr as they are with the term BREXIT. The former was a pinnacle of EU interference in the minutiae of daily life, the latter the currently perceived resolution to such things (amongst others).

... Now if I told you that another example of the scale of utter EU ridiculousness was their legislating the maximum legal curvature of bananas and cucumbers would you believe me? Or might you think that would be preposterous and more likely it was a fault of my memory and in fact it was a hilarious parody from say Monty Python. 'The Chief Banana Inspector pays a surprise visit'. 'Get your bananas out men, the Banana Curvature Inspector is here!'... True or false? :-k
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Re: UK vote to leave the EU ['BREXIT'] - 23rd June

Postby JR8 » Thu, 12 May 2016 10:17 pm

ps. If you don't know, I'll give you a hand*... [my bolding]
--------------------------------------------------
'Commission Regulation (EC) No. 2257/94
'On 29 July 2008, the European Commission held a preliminary vote concerning the repeal of certain regulations related to the quality of specific fruit and vegetables that included provisions related to size and shape. According to the Commission's press release, "In this era of high prices and growing demand, it makes no sense to throw these products away or destroy them." The Agriculture Commissioner stated, "This is a concrete example of our drive to cut red tape and I will continue to push until it goes through. [...] It shouldn't be the EU's job to regulate these things. It is far better to leave it to market operators
."'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commissio ... o._2257/94
-----------------------------------------------------

* which purely coincidentally is the collective noun for a bunch of bananas :)
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Re: UK vote to leave the EU ['BREXIT'] - 23rd June

Postby BBCWatcher » Fri, 13 May 2016 9:11 am

JR8 wrote:How much do commercial-grade scales cost, ones good enough to be licensed as fit by the local council Trading Standards dept, no idea, but I bet they aren't cheap.

Let's assume for sake of argument that commercial grade scales aren't cheap.

So what? They weren't cheap, past tense. Metrification is all in the past in the United Kingdom. Those metric scales were already purchased, long ago, and all scales now available for sale include metric.(*)

If you were having a debate many, many years ago, trying to help shopkeepers defer their scale upgrades or replacements, this would be a relevant argument. It isn't now, in the present time. They've already made those investments, long, long ago. It's like arguing about the appropriate form of prenatal care for a kid who is already born and attending university.

(*) A major advantage to shopkeepers now, in the recent past, present, and future. Dual unit capable, standardized scales are available from every scale vendor -- a larger, more competitive market that helps to drive down the cost of buying and maintaining commercial-grade scales. The common market has its advantages!

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Re: UK vote to leave the EU ['BREXIT'] - 23rd June

Postby Strong Eagle » Fri, 13 May 2016 10:50 am

JR8 wrote:How much do commercial-grade scales cost, ones good enough to be licensed as fit by the local council Trading Standards dept, no idea, but I bet they aren't cheap.


Slap a sticker on the dial, and presto! It's metric. Slap another sticker on the dial and presto! It's Martian. I've got no problem with an agency wanting accurate scales. The whole reason we have to do this is because of the f*cks who cheat.

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Re: UK vote to leave the EU ['BREXIT'] - 23rd June

Postby JR8 » Fri, 27 May 2016 8:01 pm

From a op-ed piece in today's UK Daily Telegraph; interesting suggestion on how Germany is perceived vs the economic reality.
-----------------------------
'Culturally, UK workers are far more flexible, far more likely to accept change and to work hard than those of many other countries. Rather than get worse as the red tape has increased, the British workplace has actually become even more willing to change and adapt, as we saw during the financial crisis.

The same is true of many other areas. We may be bad – including our poor schools and infrastructure – but others are, across the whole economy, worse than us. That is why, for example, the Italian economy has shrunk by 1pc since 2000, while the UK (and US) economies have both grown by 30pc. Germany is up by 18pc in that time, as is France.

Yet most people in the UK still probably believe that the German economy is stronger than ours. It’s a bizarre psychological flaw that goes to the heart of the British psyche: we see only our faults, not our strengths, and we continue to over-rate our continental competitors. One reason, perhaps, is that we perceive Germany as the home of very high quality, very tangible goods, such as luxury cars; we now focus far more on intangible services.'

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/201 ... ess-to-uk/
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Re: UK vote to leave the EU ['BREXIT'] - 23rd June

Postby x9200 » Fri, 27 May 2016 9:17 pm

JR8 wrote:The same is true of many other areas. We may be bad – including our poor schools and infrastructure – but others are, across the whole economy, worse than us. That is why, for example, the Italian economy has shrunk by 1pc since 2000, while the UK (and US) economies have both grown by 30pc. Germany is up by 18pc in that time, as is France.

Yet most people in the UK still probably believe that the German economy is stronger than ours

If only the growth was some absolute measure of the economy strength.

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Re: UK vote to leave the EU ['BREXIT'] - 23rd June

Postby calugaruvaxile » Fri, 27 May 2016 10:36 pm

yeah, the press is full of very competent people forecasting UK's doom in case of brexit. the same competent people who predicted wealth and heaven for the citizens of eurozone, back in 2000. the same who made very good predictions, six month ago, on the oil price (they predicted anything from $10 to $100, so when taking the weighed average of their predictions, they are quite close).

somehow, i believe the london weather report is more reliable. and this isn't exactly praise

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Re: UK vote to leave the EU ['BREXIT'] - 23rd June

Postby JR8 » Wed, 01 Jun 2016 6:10 am

A video pitched at the undecided/apathetic in the impending UK vs EU 'BREXIT' vote.
He's as clear-cut as one could be. I'm kinda mild-BREXIT, he's vehemently BREXIT - yet I can't fault anything he says... hmmm.
--------------------
'The Moment of Truth'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFt-pRIvL9E
[10 mins]
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Re: UK vote to leave the EU ['BREXIT'] - 23rd June

Postby earthfriendly » Wed, 01 Jun 2016 6:45 am

I did not have a chance to read thru the entire thread. Stephen Hawkins on Trump and Brexit. JR8, just stay in lah. Good for Britain and even better for the EU :king: .

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/ste ... li=BBnbfcL


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