UK vote to leave the EU ['BREXIT'] - 23rd June

[JR8]

Here's just one other example: tungsten filament incandescent lightbulbs are illegal to sell. It doesn't matter that for many older people they're the only bulbs that produce good light to read by. Now we all have to buy low-energy bulbs... to help save the planet they say, we're not given that choice. But they are way more expensive and don't last as long either, and good luck to older people reading by the light of one.

This is why whenever I fly to the UK from outside the EU (incl from SG) I take an order for 'old style' lightbulbs from my parents. Might sound silly, but for many the EU is the epitome of crass, intrusive, unwanted and expensive silliness.

[JR8]

And the barrage of fear-mongering from the 'Remainers' is relentless. In fact they call the political orchestration of it 'Project Fear'.

Here is just the latest one from a few minutes ago that's scrolled up in my news ticker...
'Sterling might fall 20% if UK leaves European Union, NIESR says'

Who knows who or what NIESR is, but if you simply followed the money then without doubt you'd discover their self-interest in touting this line. It really is desperate. It's been and being parodied and memed relentlessly, but that will never stop their fear of the citizenry being free to vote their democratic will.

[nakatago]

Here's just one other example: tungsten filament incandescent lightbulbs are illegal to sell. It doesn't matter that for many older people they're the only bulbs that produce good light to read by. Now we all have to buy low-energy bulbs... to help save the planet they say, we're not given that choice. But they are way more expensive and don't last as long either, and good luck to older people reading by the light of one.

That's funny. You must have crappy new low-energy bulbs because from anecdotal evidence, they do last longer for one thing. And you can get one of those new bulbs in warm white which is a nice, warm glow, like incandescents. I always get them in warm white.

[Strong Eagle]

Here's just one other example: tungsten filament incandescent lightbulbs are illegal to sell. It doesn't matter that for many older people they're the only bulbs that produce good light to read by. Now we all have to buy low-energy bulbs... to help save the planet they say, we're not given that choice. But they are way more expensive and don't last as long either, and good luck to older people reading by the light of one.

This is why whenever I fly to the UK from outside the EU (incl from SG) I take an order for 'old style' lightbulbs from my parents. Might sound silly, but for many the EU is the epitome of crass, intrusive, unwanted and expensive silliness.

I'm going all LED. Better life, better light, better efficiency... are you buying that Chinese crap?

[x9200]

I am also slowly replacing to all led, partly for the reason my wife being a bit obsessed with mercury poisoning, but partly because they are just more efficient than the (so called) energy saving fluorescent bulbs. I recently replaced a 36W fluorescent lamp (the bulb eco type, not the very old circular one) in the bathroom with a 22W LED panel and the difference is striking.
And, I am actually using the Chinese cheap sh*t and so far no problems.

[Barnsley]

Should the UK vote to leave the EU ...

Is there a way back in?

Could a party stand in a General Election as looking to take the UK back in?

[MikeJones]

JR8 also has his cause and effect round the wrong way. The UK announced a phase out of incandescent bulbs to be completed by 2011 in 2007 http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7016020.stm a full year before the EU member states agreed to the same http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP ... ?locale=en.

Yet more regulation imposed by non-elected EU bureaucrats, not

Mike

In the interests of full disclosure I'm a Kiwi with dual NZ/UK citizenship, personally I think UK should stay in for purely selfish reasons, the ability to work throughout Europe without having to apply for work permits is a lovely option to have and I'd really rather that stayed the same.

[BBCWatcher]

Should the UK vote to leave the EU ...
Is there a way back in?
Could a party stand in a General Election as looking to take the UK back in?

Yes, and yes. Although all parties have vowed to respect the vote, the referendum is legally non-binding. If "Leave" wins then, hypothetically, one or more political parties could campaign on a "Remain" platform (or a "Just Kidding!" platform, if you prefer), win the next general election, and then claim they have a new political mandate and refuse to implement the result of the referendum. That's a fairly tough political argument to make since new governments don't tend to win majority votes in the U.K. first-past-the-post system, but it is theoretically possible especially if a "Leave" vote triggers an economic crisis that gives voters pause. (I'm not predicting that.)

Alternatively, in principle the United Kingdom can leave the European Union then, in the future, rejoin. Rejoining would require EU approval of course. Greenland left the predecessor to the EU and is now considering rejoining. Withdrawal then rejoining would take many years, perhaps even decades. Greenland left in the early 1980s and still hasn't rejoined (and may never).

There's even another rejoining possibility which is that "Leave" wins, the United Kingdom leaves the European Union, Scotland holds another independence referendum (due to the profound change in circumstances, which is a reasonable argument for another referendum), Scotland votes for independence, Scotland leaves the United Kingdom, and Scotland (re)joins the European Union. The net effect is that the EU loses England, Wales, and Northern Ireland but keeps Scotland. (Whereupon Northern Ireland and Wales might ponder their future, too. ) That particular chain of events is somewhat likely if voters in Scotland choose "Remain," particularly overwhelmingly, but the rest of the U.K. outvotes them. It's more likely if the United Kingdom's relationship with the EU decays to something substantially less than that what Norway, Iceland, Liechtenstein, and Switzerland have. I've just described the Scottish National Party's views in capsule form, and the SNP is doing pretty well.

[BBCWatcher]

It would show that there is a way out of Hotel California, and that's what terrified the Eurocrats and legions of vested interests so much.

I don't think the EU is particularly terrified. For example, civic and business leaders in Frankfurt are quietly preparing for the possibility of Brexit according to press reports. Frankfurt is already a financial center and likely to become a much bigger one if the EU loses the City of London. Those leaders take pains to say they don't welcome or encourage the prospect, but they admit that their parochial interests would be well served with a Brexit.

Right now London is a financial center within a single market of over half a billion people. London is much less interesting if that number shrinks to about 64 million. So the financial center of gravity will shift if there's a Brexit. How much and how quickly is unclear, and it'll depend on what sort of Brexit there is.

To pick another example, there's some reason to believe that Ireland would do quite well if the U.K. exits the European Union. Ireland would be the sole predominantly English speaking country left in the EU, and that'd be an advantage, perhaps a very serious one. Until Scotland rejoins the EU, but then again nobody can understand the Scots.

[Barnsley]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05 ... xit-vote2/

IMMIGRATION
Leave:
Britain can never control immigration until it leaves the European Union, because freedom of movement gives other EU citizens an automatic right to live here.

Stay:
Leaving will not solve the migration crisis but bring it to Britain’s doorstep because border controls from the Continent will move from Calais in France to Dover in UK.
CRIME
Leave:
The European Arrest Warrant allows British citizens to be sent abroad and charged for crimes in foreign courts, often for minor offences. Exit would stop this.

Stay:
Rapists, murders and other serious criminals who convict offences in Britain can only be returned once fleeing abroad thanks to the European Arrest Warrant. Exit would stop justice being done.
TRADE
Leave:
Britain’s links with the EU are holding back its focus on emerging markets – there is no major trade deal with China or India, for example. Leaving would allow the UK to diversify its international links.

Stay:
44 per cent of Britain’s exports go to other EU countries. Putting up barriers with the countries that Britain trades with most would be counterproductive.
LAW
Leave:
Too many of Britain’s laws are made overseas by dictates passed down from Brussels and rulings upheld by the European Court of Justice. UK courts must become sovereign again.

Stay:
The exit campaign has over-exaggerated how many laws are determined by the European Commission. It is better to shape EU-wide laws from the inside rather than walking away.
JOBS
Leave:
The danger to jobs has been over-exaggerated. By incentivising investment through low corporation tax and other perks Britain can flourish like the Scandinavian countries outside the EU.

Stay:
Around three million jobs are linked to the EU and will be plunged into uncertainty if voters plump for exit, as businesses would be less likely to invest if the country was outside Europe.
CLOUT
Leave:
Britain does not need the EU to prosper internationally. By re-engaging with the Commonwealth the UK can have just as much clout as it does from inside the EU.

Stay:
Britain will be “drifting off into the mid-Atlantic” if it leaves the EU, as Nick Clegg likes to say. In a globalising world the UK’s interests are best protected by remaining part of the EU block, with American and Chinese leaders indicating as much.
FINANCE
Leave:
Talk of capital flight is nonsense. London will remain a leading financial centre outside the EU and banks will still want to be headquartered in Britain due to low tax rates.

Stay:
Banks will flee the UK and the City of London collapse if Britain votes for exit, because the trading advantages of being inside the EU help boost banks' profits.
SOVEREIGNTY
Leave:
The British Parliament is no longer sovereign. With the EU hell-bent on “ever closer union” and further economic integration likely after the euro crisis, it is best to call it quits before ties deepen.

Stay:
In a globalised world, every country must work closer with others if the want to flourish economically. A Little Englander desire for isolation will undermine the UK, plus the PM might have won an opt-out to “ever closer union” come the referendum.
DEFENCE
Leave:
Britain could soon be asked to contribute to a EU Army, with reports suggesting Angela Merkel may demand the Prime Minister’s approval in return for other concessions. That would erode the UK’s independent military force and should be opposed.

Stay:
European countries together are facing the threats from Isil and a resurgent Russia. Working together to combat these challenges is best – an effort that would be undermined if Britain turns its back on the EU.

[JR8]

That's funny. You must have crappy new low-energy bulbs because from anecdotal evidence, they do last longer for one thing. And you can get one of those new bulbs in warm white which is a nice, warm glow, like incandescents. I always get them in warm white.

I don’t know if you can buy ‘crappy’ ones, in any case Osram (German, hence you’d hope well made) seems to be the brand we always have to buy. Perhaps that’s part of the pricing issue, there seems to be something of a monopoly on their manufacture. From my experience we seem to be doing well if we have a bulb that lasts a year. My desk-lamp was bought from a sale at the Philips-SG warehouse around 7-8 years ago; I’ve had to replace the bulb in it more than any other light fitting I’ve known. Whereas replacing lightbulbs used to be a very occasional surprise, nowadays I seem to have to keep a drawer of various spares ready for when the next L-E one blows. ‘Lightbulb moments’ are no longer once in a decade events in this household, but every couple of months.

Perhaps paying $10 for a bulb twice a year, rather than $1 every 10 years pains less if you believe in anthropogenic global warming. At least then one might feel as if you’re paying more but it’s a self-sacrifice for a greater noble cause? [errr the mercury in most L-E bulbs is a side-matter of course, I’m sure we all dutifully take our bins full of dud bulbs off to some recycling point, don’t we? ].

I’ve tried varieties of L-E ones, my opportunity to trial various bulbs facilitated by the frequency with which they need replacing [ironic]. Perhaps that should be ‘’’L-E’’’ given the time, energy and expense that goes into replacing the damned things, but none replicate the light from an old-school bulb IME. Given the choice I’d use solely old-school bulbs, but the choice has been taken taken away from me, made illegal in fact. In whose interests? The politicians who have signed up to emission targets and (from the article linked by MikeJones) ...

‘Mr Benn told the conference in Bournemouth: "The major retailers and the energy suppliers are now leading a voluntary initiative with the strong support of the lighting industry and of the government to help phase out traditional, high-energy lightbulbs.’

All three of which sell the lightbulbs. Follow the money.

I'm going all LED. Better life, better light, better efficiency... are you buying that Chinese crap?

Last time I looked at LED they were very expensive. My lounge back home has c20 halogen downlights in the ceiling, I wonder what they’ll cost to replace. And as the circuits are dimmable, I’m not even sure they’ll cope with such a change.

Should the UK vote to leave the EU ...
Is there a way back in?
Could a party stand in a General Election as looking to take the UK back in?

- Yes, on balance, because the EU is politically almost completely unaccountable and has morphed into something many Europeans (and most in the UK) do not want.
- Of course, why wouldn’t there be if that is what the people so wished for? And the EU is all about openly democratic and pragmatic matters like trade etc. so why not? Now [ironic] if the EU was also about...ooh... the exertion of say Franco-German power, and a BREXIT bruised their pride, then maybe they’d claim that a BREXIT would be a one way move, and they’d threaten us with doom, armageddon, slaughter of the first born and everything else [not ironic at all]... which is precisely what they *are* doing now. Why is that? If the EU is so self-evidently wonderful then why does the entire EU machine seem to have to be working to stop any member leaving it, or even suggesting it [per Greece]?

MikeJones: ‘Yet more regulation imposed by non-elected EU bureaucrats, not ‘

Either the UK and the EU dreamt up their identical legislation entirely separately and coincidentally, or the policy ‘paralleled’ and the UK happened to enact it domestically a year earlier. The former would be such an impossible coincidence that I’m forced to conclude the latter.

MJ: ‘I think UK should stay in for purely selfish reasons, the ability to work throughout Europe without having to apply for work permits is a lovely option to have and I'd really rather that stayed the same.

... and by extension one could say that it’s the selfish/self-interest of the French and Germans that the EU exists at all.
I can see that having a right to work anywhere in Europe appeals to some, but I think it’s a tiny minority. Most people who move for work don’t also wish to have to become fluent in a foreign language in order to facilitate such a move. I do not know a single person who has ever had a career in the UK and chosen to continue that career [or another one] within the rest of the EU. But I know many, many, people who have moved abroad with their career to other English speaking countries. Perhaps you were born a cunning-linguist I don’t know?

[JR8]

Having finished the above post I'm now going through my e-mail inbox. Not an hour these days goes by without some 'blast' for or against EU membership like this one; this from the daily e-mailed round-up of headlines from the UK Daily Telegraph...

'Margaret Thatcher’s former economic adviser has lashed out at the Government’s attempts to "terrify" households into voting to stay in the EU.'

If the virtues of being in the EU are so self-evident why is it that the government has to 'terrify' us into seeing and believing them.

[DrScrumMaster]

They used to mark up their prices in £/lb, pound per pound. Under EU rules the signage of prices per pound had become illegal, it then had to be in £/Kg, despite many older people not knowing what a Kg of a product was

I know, it's absolutely ridiculous. How are people who've been brought up with the avoirdupois system of pounds and ounces expected to understand what a Kelvin gram is? It wouldn't have been so bad if they'd been expected to use kilogram, but even that is an unfamiliar unit for the customers.

[Strong Eagle]

At Home Depot, JR8, US $$ prices... http://www.homedepot.com/b/Electrical-L ... 79Z1z132nb

Cheapest bulbs are about $5.50 each, equal to or better than flourescent.

[BBCWatcher]

Fortunately dual unit signage is legally permitted in the United Kingdom with no expiration date. Stores are perfectly free to display both units of measure on their signage, and they routinely do.

Most packaged products in U.K. supermarkets started including metric weights and volumes about 36 years ago, in 1980. Anybody who hasn't stumbled into a gram by now really hasn't been paying attention.

If you really want to complain about something "confusing" you ought to be complaining about the decimalisation of U.K. currency on February 15, 1971. There's no accommodation whatsoever for fans of shillings. Try asking a supermarket cashier "How much is that in shillings?" and see what happens.