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SG citizen by descent; NS defaulter?

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Re: SG citizen by descent; NS defaulter?

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Tue, 12 Apr 2016 1:47 pm

BBCWatcher wrote:SMS, do you know if Singapore has any treaties (or even treaties the U.K. signed that remain in force, as extradition treaties did) that exempt certain dual nationals and non-citizens from NS? I doubt it, but some countries have such arrangements. The U.S. does, for example.

Serious mental and/or physical disability(ies) can result in a NS exemption or deferment, but the enlistee still needs to go through an exam to verify that. I don't recommend acquiring a serious mental or physical disability. ](*,)


I'm afraid I don't. I know there is a problem that Singapore has with Indonesia regarding dual citizenship and military service in Singapore. I believe it still stands that if a male PR does NS (as required by accepting PR) he can lose his Indonesian citizenship. This has been an ongoing problem for sometime but I don't think it's ever been resolved.

I know that if you are a conscientious objector in the US, it doesn't make a hill of beans here if you are required to serve NS. However, I don't see how the two could be linked today with no 'conscription' what with the draft being mothballed. But I could see it happening if one got out of the draft as a CO and came to Singapore after that as a PR under his parents (say at 18.5 years of age - still below the age of majority in Singapore). I'm afraid he would have to do NS here.

Oh, the link behind "U.S. does" does not work as it's behind a secure https:// Apparently you are a logged in person, so us laymen cannot access it.

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Re: SG citizen by descent; NS defaulter?

Postby BBCWatcher » Tue, 12 Apr 2016 2:21 pm

Selective Service's Web site is just down at this instant. That Web link should come back into service in due course.

FYI, there's been some recent debate in Washington whether to require young women to register since all military roles are now open to women (and which would probably require some increase in Selective Service's funding) or whether to restructure Selective Service in some fundamental way, primarily to reduce its current $22.5 million budget -- for example, to limit Selective Service's peacetime scope to its medical draft mission or to eliminate Selective Service altogether. The general trend over the years (like in Singapore) has been to reduce or eliminate deferments and exemptions, and perhaps gender will be the next such domino. To be determined.

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Re: SG citizen by descent; NS defaulter?

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Tue, 12 Apr 2016 3:33 pm

Girls with guns. Yummmm! Something erotic about that, yeah? And girls with guns are a damned sight more dangerous than any guy once they get angry or a purpose. =P~

Truth be known, I'd be all for it. Like Israel. If they don't want to make babies let 'em carry a gun.

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Re: RE: Re: SG citizen by descent; NS defaulter?

Postby ecureilx » Tue, 12 Apr 2016 3:37 pm

BBCWatcher wrote:No. I also did not forget peach pickers and audio repair technicians. :o That is to say, I didn't mention them, and I didn't intend to. What I intended to do is inject a bit of levity into this fairly dreary conversation -- the head-crashing-into-a-wall emoticon is a clue -- but apparently you missed the joke.

What's your problem, Ecureilx? Are you just looking for fights and arguments? You'll find them everywhere -- that's easy. You don't need me for that.


The note about Gays and Trans, that's factual information. You can ask any Citizen who has served NS about it, and so is the constant tatrum thrown by Jehovah's witness guys.

Pick a fight with you ? Oh, no way. I know I will not win anything against you.

Just that, in the future, if somebody asks a question, there should be two threads for reply:

1: Known, anecdotal and possibly correct info,

and

2: Information overload including reference to North Korean, President Carter, President Abraham Lincoln and his citizenship of San Marino, A lot of Fun Facts, ideas on planning your travel route, referring Biman and Air India as death traps, and all, and also 101 thoughts on how to piss off Mindef and all possible and impossible scenarios.

Bliss555 wrote:@Ecurelix: to what extent will Mindef go to get NS dodgers?


It doesn't matter, as I can't back up what I know and have heard with factual, realistic, statistical and such info.

Stick with your plan, and you are good to go. Just take not of the 100 possible ways your son may land in Singapore. Who knows, by then the opposition may have taken over and abolished compulsory NS.

Good luck. Don't forget to update us if your manage to successfully evade NS. Based on the 4 + pages of information, you are in good hands I guess.

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Re: SG citizen by descent; NS defaulter?

Postby BBCWatcher » Tue, 12 Apr 2016 4:30 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:I know there is a problem that Singapore has with Indonesia regarding dual citizenship and military service in Singapore. I believe it still stands that if a male PR does NS (as required by accepting PR) he can lose his Indonesian citizenship. This has been an ongoing problem for sometime but I don't think it's ever been resolved.

Involuntary statelessness? Wow, that's ugly. :( I hope Singapore rapidly steps into the breach for those NSmen.

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Re: SG citizen by descent; NS defaulter?

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Tue, 12 Apr 2016 5:32 pm

Everybody thinks about the ongoing problems with M'sia but the resentment between Singapore and Indonesia goes a whole lot deeper than that with M'sia. Ever since the McDonald House bombing during Konfrontasi in 1963 the tensions have always remained just below the surface and occasionally they rise to the surface, as happened a couple years ago with the naming of two Indo Naval vessels after the two terrorists/military personnel that bombed McDonald house. Indonesia still vets them as hero and not terrorists. Very sensitive issue. I worked the length & breadth of Indonesia from 1982 to 1994.

I only had a problem once over there and that was on the 16th of April 1986 when I left Singapore for crew change to Balikpapan in Kalimantan. On my arrival as I went through immigration I was pulled out of the line and escorted to a small room where I was then transferred to the local police station. There I was made to stand at parade rest for approximately 8 hours without food or water or explanation of why I was being held there in such a manner. Eventually the Caltex rep there finally located me (they were not advised where I was but they knew I was on the flight manifest when I left Singapore). They greased some palms as per normal and I was free to go. The Indo agent explained what had happened (ignorance of the locals). I arrived at 0800 that morning just after the news broke that the US had bombed Libya the day before on the 15th of April. Because I was on a US passport they, in spite, pulled me out of the immigration and decided to let me stand there. I have no idea how long I would have been there if the Caltex rep hadn't shown up with the local agent. They are wacko's over there to say the least and to me, it's a toss-up who is the most corrupt, them or M'sia.

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Re: SG citizen by descent; NS defaulter?

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Tue, 12 Apr 2016 5:36 pm

This issue came up before on the forum here many years ago as it was a situation where the child was born in Indonesia and when the parents got PR here they didn't want their child to have PR but only an LTVP and later a student visa because of this issue. I don't know what ever happened at it was a long time ago.

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Re: SG citizen by descent; NS defaulter?

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Tue, 12 Apr 2016 5:52 pm

Took a while but I found what I was looking for (2012 thread) with the Indonesian Legislation no. 12/2006, Chapter 4, Article 23. The link is to the specific post in the thread and the Legislation is roughly translated by an Indonesia of some knowledge and background (Mother is also an Indonesian lawyer as well).

I couldn't find the earlier one though concerning the child. :-( that predated this thread.

viewtopic.php?p=618454#p618454

While item C. would not leave him stateless, several others would.

D. Is serving for/in a foreign military without prior approval from the President.

F. Voluntarily made a pledge or an oath of loyalty/service to a foreign country/nation/state or to any subdivision of it. (This will be done when you enter NS.)

Definitely a grey area as the other codicils all say only if it will not make them stateless.

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Re: SG citizen by descent; NS defaulter?

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Tue, 12 Apr 2016 6:09 pm

Found the older threads with the minor....

ftopic45607.html

viewtopic.php?p=476614#p476614

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Re: SG citizen by descent; NS defaulter?

Postby BBCWatcher » Tue, 12 Apr 2016 6:36 pm

The smoke pollution from the periodic Indonesian fires hasn't been helping relations either. :(

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Re: SG citizen by descent; NS defaulter?

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Tue, 12 Apr 2016 9:50 pm

See, that's the problem, with 300 million people, all potential jihadists, they really aren't too worried. Even if Singapore has the most advance military in the region, they are not going to overcome that swarm of hornets it is ever came to that. Singapore will learn a bloody lesson they may not recover from. They will let the bulldog mouth overload their hummingbird arses once too often. It's like the fence sitting game they are always trying to play. eventually they are going to get called out and they will be facing a lose-lose situation then. But that's another discussion.

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Re: RE: Re: SG citizen by descent; NS defaulter?

Postby taxico » Thu, 14 Apr 2016 10:49 pm

ecureilx wrote:
BBCWatcher wrote:Serious mental and/or physical disability(ies) can result in a NS exemption or deferment, but the enlistee still needs to go through an exam to verify that. I don't recommend acquiring a serious mental or physical disability. ](*,)


Gay/homo, trans - too can be exempted or put in desk jobs. Did you forget Jehovah's Witness ?


just FYI... JWs... 3 years DB (military prison) in lieu of NS. no civil service jobs.
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Re: RE: Re: SG citizen by descent; NS defaulter?

Postby taxico » Thu, 14 Apr 2016 10:53 pm

BBCWatcher wrote:How would NS evaders hypothetically avoid medical diversions to and tech stops in Singapore? Well, simple logic suggests looking at Great Circle routes before scheduling airline flights, and choosing flights that cannot possibly pass anywhere near Singapore. Which probably means not flying into or from Johor Bahru, to pick an example. A Miami to Buenos Aires flight is probably OK, as another example. Moscow to Seoul? Changi would be a serious detour to say the least. But definitely avoid Biman and Air India since you're lucky not to have a medical diversion or tech stop with them. (Another joke. Mostly.) And I wouldn't recommend KrisFlyer as the NS evader's frequent flyer program of choice.

If one lives in the United States and remains in the United States -- as tens of millions of people do -- then avoiding Singapore and its territorial waters isn't hard at all. Just avoid stepping into one of Elon Musk's future teleportation devices, and there's no problem. Of course a NS evader's desired travel patterns may vary, and some desires may not be possible or prudent.


none of the above is realistic without knowing what the young man will become.

the point is to (i believe) not get him backed into a corner, but to resolve the underlying issues so the world is his oyster.
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: SG citizen by descent; NS defaulter?

Postby ecureilx » Thu, 14 Apr 2016 11:25 pm

taxico wrote:just FYI... JWs... 3 years DB (military prison) in lieu of NS. no civil service jobs.


3 years DB ? Ouch.

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Re: RE: Re: SG citizen by descent; NS defaulter?

Postby PNGMK » Fri, 15 Apr 2016 5:08 am

taxico wrote:
ecureilx wrote:
BBCWatcher wrote:Serious mental and/or physical disability(ies) can result in a NS exemption or deferment, but the enlistee still needs to go through an exam to verify that. I don't recommend acquiring a serious mental or physical disability. ](*,)


Gay/homo, trans - too can be exempted or put in desk jobs. Did you forget Jehovah's Witness ?


just FYI... JWs... 3 years DB (military prison) in lieu of NS. no civil service jobs.


While I consider JW's to be cultists that is a harsh.
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