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SG citizen by descent; NS defaulter?

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Re: SG citizen by descent; NS defaulter?

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Mon, 11 Apr 2016 6:12 pm

Or having to give up that plum offer that would put him head and shoulders above all his colleagues, only because he would have to do a two year hitch in Singapore with the MNC he might be working for. Thanks again, folks. In fact, that is exactly what the OP of this thread was on about.

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Re: SG citizen by descent; NS defaulter?

Postby BBCWatcher » Mon, 11 Apr 2016 6:35 pm

ecureilx wrote:Come to think of it, how will it go if he joined the Navy and the vessel docked in Singapore ? Or Joined the Air Force and his plane landed in Singapore for RnR ? Serious question.

I don't know the legalistic answer -- that'd take quite a bit of research -- but the practical answer is that governments tend to act in their self-interest. For a variety of reasons it is not in Singapore's self-interest to have the U.S. government apprehend and detain one of its active duty soldiers if (when) the roles were reversed, especially given the context. "Best guess" is that Singapore's government would ask that particular sailor or crewman to leave (or not to leave his ship or aircraft), and the Pentagon would do its best to honor their ally's request -- or to avoid offending their ally in the first place. It'd be analogous to diplomatic courtesies. As a practical matter militaries don't disclose the names or other details of their sailors or crewmen, even to allies. Such details would probably not become known unless an individual actually left his/her ship or aircraft (and any secured area) for "shore leave." Bliss555's son would presumably be sensible enough not to take shore leave in Singapore, without being asked or ordered not to take shore leave. Singapore will not attempt to violate her ally's security zones, for hopefully obvious reasons.

Ecureilx, you might have come up with the one loophole. ;) I don't think the diplomatic corps would work -- Singapore would simply refuse to accredit Bliss555's son. But as a random sailor aboard (and staying aboard) a U.S. Navy vessel docked in Singapore, looking out a porthole at Singapore's future skyline? That'd probably work.

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Re: SG citizen by descent; NS defaulter?

Postby BBCWatcher » Mon, 11 Apr 2016 6:47 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:Or having to give up that plum offer that would put him head and shoulders above all his colleagues, only because he would have to do a two year hitch in Singapore with the MNC he might be working for.

Agreed, SMS. That's a possible consequence of evading National Service if that's Bliss555's son's future career trajectory. Avoiding Singapore means avoiding Singapore, permanently and completely. It's exile, excommunication.

My assumption is that Bliss555's son is aware of the ramifications of evading NS, or at least if he isn't yet he's quickly coming up to speed. Given evasion of NS, I can't think of any added difficulties in the U.S. specifically associated with whether or not the Singaporean government views Bliss555's son as its citizen or not. When you've stolen a horse, it doesn't matter whether the saddle is brown or black, so to speak. But yeah, you've stolen a horse, agreed.

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Re: SG citizen by descent; NS defaulter?

Postby ecureilx » Mon, 11 Apr 2016 6:53 pm

BBCWatcher wrote:For a variety of reasons it is not in Singapore's self-interest to have the U.S. government apprehend and detain one of its active duty soldiers if (when) the roles were reversed, especially given the context. "Best guess" is that Singapore's government would ask that particular sailor or crewman to leave (or not to leave his ship or aircraft), and the Pentagon would do its best to honor their ally's request -- or to avoid offending their ally in the first place. It'd be analogous to diplomatic courtesies. As a practical matter militaries don't disclose the names or other details of their sailors or crewmen, even to allies. Such details would probably not become known unless an individual actually left his/her ship or aircraft (and any secured area) for "shore leave." Bliss555's son would presumably be sensible enough not to take shore leave in Singapore, without being asked or ordered not to take shore leave. Singapore will not attempt to violate her ally's security zones, for hopefully obvious reasons.


A lot of assumptions there ...

BBCWatcher wrote:Ecureilx, you might have come up with the one loophole. ;) I don't think the diplomatic corps would work -- Singapore would simply refuse to accredit Bliss555's son. But as a random sailor aboard (and staying aboard) a U.S. Navy vessel docked in Singapore, looking out a porthole at Singapore's future skyline? That'd probably work.


No, I don't want any credit, it's all yours :-k :-k You have can have all of it.

PS, have you served in the forces ? Maybe SMS can explain how it would work, when you refuse to step ashore :)

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Re: SG citizen by descent; NS defaulter?

Postby BBCWatcher » Mon, 11 Apr 2016 7:15 pm

ecureilx wrote:PS, have you served in the forces ? Maybe SMS can explain how it would work, when you refuse to step ashore :)

I don't answer most personal background questions, even (or especially) pseudonymously.

OK, so you've flipped things around. In that hypothetical Bliss555's son would presumably inform his C.O. that his physical, off base presence in Singapore would at least irritate an ally (and why). His C.O. would then decide what if anything to do with that information.

It's not exactly common that someone who evades Singapore's NS would then enlist in a branch of the U.S. military. However, the U.S. military is familiar with these rare situations. (I suspect Singapore's is as well.) It's a huge organization, and there are a few members who evaded compulsory service elsewhere. It was a fairly common event during big wars, such as World War II, with lots of drafts among allies occasionally going after the same manpower. In practice if you joined an allied army first (perhaps volunteered) then your local draft board respected that as a matter of policy. There were a fair number of Americans -- pilots, for example -- who joined the Canadian and British air corps before the U.S. entered the war, and they continued serving in the allied forces. The U.S. even has a draft deferment classification for such individuals, as I recall. Yes, the U.S. has a "dormant" military draft system, ready to come alive in a national emergency if the U.S. President reintroduces military conscription.

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Re: SG citizen by descent; NS defaulter?

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Mon, 11 Apr 2016 9:02 pm

And that is the real reason for having to register with the Selective Service system till today. Granted it gives you brownie points if you should decide to become a civil servant and other benefits, if you registered, but the real reason is when they finally piss off N.Korea and an all out war is declared, they will know where to find your butt to be called up as cannon fodder.

Singaporeans would be flabbergasted to know that the US military is 100% volunteer with no NS currently and also has over 60,000 enlisted US Green Card (PRs) holders in it's ranks - also voluntary. Of course it's a short cut to Citizenship but it is also a shortcut here as well should one actually want to be a citizen of the little red dot. My Son-in-Law is one such Citizen (his parents are still PR to this day). Son-in-Law went to OCS became an officer and was given his citizenship.

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Re: SG citizen by descent; NS defaulter?

Postby Bliss555 » Mon, 11 Apr 2016 10:52 pm

Sundaymorningstaple: what straight answer have you given me? FOr him to get arrested, imprisoned and then serve NS??? That is not an option! In that case, he would have done NS earlier which was just not possible. Please do not judge me, you do not know the circumstances leading up to all this, and his stay in Singapore earlier which was against my wishes. Yes, I wish I had been more aware of the rules earlier, but I wasn't for various reasons. If he could come to Sg now without complications and serve NS now and then renounce sg citizenship, he would, But the government does not allow that. So I do not know what straight answer you are talking about. @Ecurelix: to what extent will Mindef go to get NS dodgers?

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Re: SG citizen by descent; NS defaulter?

Postby Bliss555 » Mon, 11 Apr 2016 11:15 pm

And yes,it is things like flight diversions that I am worried about.But having a conviction on your head does not augur well for your career or life!

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Re: SG citizen by descent; NS defaulter?

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Mon, 11 Apr 2016 11:27 pm

I did give you a straight answer. It's as straight as you are going to get. There is only one legal solution, whether it is acceptable or not is of little consequence if it is the only 'solution'. Everything else will have you worried every time you get on a plane if flying over Asia or depending on your employer, whether or not you will have to sabo your own career at some point in the future. Yep, it's a straight as it's going to get. There isn't a magic potion that is going to make it all go away.

As far as the conviction/fine, is concerned, I doubt there is an employer on earth who would hold this type of conviction against you once the understand what it is all about. It will be rougher if they find out you are a wanted man, don't you think?

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Re: SG citizen by descent; NS defaulter?

Postby mmore » Tue, 12 Apr 2016 3:26 am

Hi

I have a case here where I renounced my sg-citizenship and received a letter from mindef stating that the citizenship is ceased (approved?) . It also says that I have resided outside of Singapore (although I'm born and raised overseas and have never lived in spore) without an exit permit.

Which also means that im classified as a ns defaulter.

What more can I do?

1. Get jailed and do ns and after that gey thrown out of spore.

2.

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Re: SG citizen by descent; NS defaulter?

Postby BBCWatcher » Tue, 12 Apr 2016 7:46 am

2. Physically avoid Singapore, including flight connections and her territorial waters (e.g. cruise ship stops).

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Re: SG citizen by descent; NS defaulter?

Postby BBCWatcher » Tue, 12 Apr 2016 8:08 am

SMS, do you know if Singapore has any treaties (or even treaties the U.K. signed that remain in force, as extradition treaties did) that exempt certain dual nationals and non-citizens from NS? I doubt it, but some countries have such arrangements. The U.S. does, for example.

Serious mental and/or physical disability(ies) can result in a NS exemption or deferment, but the enlistee still needs to go through an exam to verify that. I don't recommend acquiring a serious mental or physical disability. ](*,)

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Re: RE: Re: SG citizen by descent; NS defaulter?

Postby ecureilx » Tue, 12 Apr 2016 11:57 am

BBCWatcher wrote:Serious mental and/or physical disability(ies) can result in a NS exemption or deferment, but the enlistee still needs to go through an exam to verify that. I don't recommend acquiring a serious mental or physical disability. ](*,)


Gay/homo, trans - too can be exempted or put in desk jobs. Did you forget Jehovah's Witness ? As for your hypotheses, please don't stop, since now have thought about feigning mental illness to escape NS

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Re: RE: Re: SG citizen by descent; NS defaulter?

Postby ecureilx » Tue, 12 Apr 2016 11:58 am

BBCWatcher wrote:2. Physically avoid Singapore, including flight connections and her territorial waters (e.g. cruise ship stops).

How do you plan to avoid medical diversions and tech stops?

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Re: RE: Re: SG citizen by descent; NS defaulter?

Postby BBCWatcher » Tue, 12 Apr 2016 1:42 pm

ecureilx wrote:Gay/homo, trans - too can be exempted or put in desk jobs. Did you forget Jehovah's Witness ?

No. I also did not forget peach pickers and audio repair technicians. :o That is to say, I didn't mention them, and I didn't intend to. What I intended to do is inject a bit of levity into this fairly dreary conversation -- the head-crashing-into-a-wall emoticon is a clue -- but apparently you missed the joke.

What's your problem, Ecureilx? Are you just looking for fights and arguments? You'll find them everywhere -- that's easy. You don't need me for that.

How do you plan to avoid medical diversions and tech stops?

*I* don't plan to avoid Singapore. I haven't used up my NETS FlashPay card yet.

(Note: that's a joke. Humor. It's funny. Laugh.)

How would NS evaders hypothetically avoid medical diversions to and tech stops in Singapore? Well, simple logic suggests looking at Great Circle routes before scheduling airline flights, and choosing flights that cannot possibly pass anywhere near Singapore. Which probably means not flying into or from Johor Bahru, to pick an example. A Miami to Buenos Aires flight is probably OK, as another example. Moscow to Seoul? Changi would be a serious detour to say the least. But definitely avoid Biman and Air India since you're lucky not to have a medical diversion or tech stop with them. (Another joke. Mostly.) And I wouldn't recommend KrisFlyer as the NS evader's frequent flyer program of choice.

If one lives in the United States and remains in the United States -- as tens of millions of people do -- then avoiding Singapore and its territorial waters isn't hard at all. Just avoid stepping into one of Elon Musk's future teleportation devices, and there's no problem. Of course a NS evader's desired travel patterns may vary, and some desires may not be possible or prudent.
Last edited by BBCWatcher on Tue, 12 Apr 2016 2:02 pm, edited 11 times in total.


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