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SG citizen by descent; NS defaulter?

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Re: RE: Re: SG citizen by descent; NS defaulter?

Postby ecureilx » Mon, 11 Apr 2016 11:39 am

Bliss555 wrote: Does anyone know what are the legal ramifications (into the future) if any of not submitting a formal application of renunciation and just returning the SG citizenship certs?


You stay as a wanted criminal, in the eyes of Singapore Govt. And SG Inc makes occasional examples to send clear messages to those trying the easy way out.

Based on the info you provided, I am sure you know this by now : No NS, no renunciation.

I am not sure why you got your wires crossed.

Alas the guy who has utmost experience and in depth knowledge in this matter has gone radio silence.

Now hypothetically speaking ....

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Re: RE: Re: SG citizen by descent; NS defaulter?

Postby ecureilx » Mon, 11 Apr 2016 11:43 am

Bliss555 wrote:I was referring to job applications/interviews. And yes he has registered with US Selective Service. if this NS default thing shows up in a background check,is that a big deal, a minus point? It is not a crime per se in international law /definition, right. Is it something to even hide in job interviews etc? The US citizens bureau told me that while there is no law prohibiting a US citizen from serving in another country's (non-hostile) military, it is not, as a policy, encouraged.


US Singapore cooperation goes beyond what you may think.

I understand there's a whole division inside the consulate at Napier Road just to manage US-SG relations, defence and otherwise. They would have incredible access to information.

As for the thought that avoiding NS is not criminal, you need to read the past posts in this subject. That's my 0.02$ worth opinion.

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Re: SG citizen by descent; NS defaulter?

Postby Bliss555 » Mon, 11 Apr 2016 12:24 pm

Apparently your citizenship lapses age 22 without a formal renunciation even though you stay wanted as an NS defaulter. if you formally renounce, you remain a singapore citizen because the renunciation is denied, and ifyou let it lapse, then you are no longer a citizen even though you still cannot enter Singapore as you could be arrested. I am wondering if there are any extra penalties for not formally renouncing and just writing a letter instead. At least one need no longer declare one as a Singapore citizen in the latter case

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Re: SG citizen by descent; NS defaulter?

Postby BBCWatcher » Mon, 11 Apr 2016 12:35 pm

Failure to fulfill National Service obligations in Singapore is not a crime under U.S. law.

The United States and Singapore have an extradition treaty, the same one drafted with the United Kingdom in 1931 and ratified in 1935. (Singapore and the United States exchanged letters in 1969 affirming and agreeing to the continuity of that treaty, after Singapore's independence.) Flight from NS is not one of the listed crimes (Article 3 of the treaty), so it's not even hypothetically an extraditable offense.(*)

OK, that said, if your son is concerned about his legal exposure in/to Singapore then there's only one way to solve that: he returns to Singapore and fulfills his National Service obligations (and any other penalties, if applicable) while he still can. His possession or lack of possession of Singaporean citizenship is moot. I really don't know why you're hung up on that.

(*) Perjury and fraud are, so one must be careful not to lie, as I mentioned upthread. The easiest way to avoid perjury and fraud in Singapore is to avoid correspondence and contact with Singapore, particularly with its government.

Fun fact: Abortion is listed (Article 3, item 3), regardless of whether the female patient gave informed consent. Abortion (with the patient's consent) is no longer a crime in either Singapore or the United States, so extradition on that basis is much narrower today.

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Re: SG citizen by descent; NS defaulter?

Postby Bliss555 » Mon, 11 Apr 2016 12:55 pm

If he is no longer a Singapore citizen, at least he does not have to state that in any questions/declarations in the future . I understand that he will continue to be a NS defaulter but will not be otherwise be connected to singapore. why go through the process of renunciation only to be denied and be a dual citizen of a country he cannot enter. what i am wondering is whether failure to formerly renounce in itself contitutes some kind of offence

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Re: SG citizen by descent; NS defaulter?

Postby BBCWatcher » Mon, 11 Apr 2016 1:11 pm

Bliss555 wrote:If he is no longer a Singapore citizen, at least he does not have to state that in any questions/declarations in the future .

It depends on the questions (seldom if ever) asked. But so what? What difference does it make? Millions of his fellow Americans possess other citizenships, and that number is growing.

The answer "Yes, Singapore" doesn't matter. What would matter is if he were to lie. That's why the question is (seldom if ever) asked, to catch somebody in a lie. It's like asking somebody how many toes they have. (Usual truthful answer: 10.) People and organizations ask innocuous questions from time to time to ascertain the truthfulness (and basic intelligence) of the applicant. It's no more complicated than that.

Do you think that your son ought to be ashamed of his second citizenship in some way? Please disabuse yourself of that notion. He didn't choose his parent(s), and he has nothing to apologize for or hide in this respect. I'm not at all understanding what the source of this particular concern is.

what i am wondering is whether failure to formerly renounce in itself contitutes some kind of offence

Hypothetically it could if he were to commit fraud or perjury (two extraditable offenses) in the process. Extremely, vanishingly unlikely but theoretically possible.

For these reasons, my recommendation would be that he either "let sleeping dogs lie" or serve his NS.

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Re: SG citizen by descent; NS defaulter?

Postby Bliss555 » Mon, 11 Apr 2016 1:25 pm

What do you mean 'let sleeping dogs lie'? In what respect? He cannot serve NS as he would get arrested. The next best thing is to be divested of citizenship. What is the reason for hanging to the citizenship of a country where he would have no rights? The documents have to be returned anyway and I was told to wait till he was 21. But if formal renunciation is just going to be a futile exercise, then the documents can just be returned to the relevant authorites. I seem to be missing something. In what way might this be construed as perjury or fraud? Could you please clarify?

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Re: SG citizen by descent; NS defaulter?

Postby BBCWatcher » Mon, 11 Apr 2016 2:36 pm

Bliss555 wrote:What do you mean 'let sleeping dogs lie'?

"Let sleeping dogs lie" means "do absolutely nothing."

He cannot serve NS as he would get arrested.

No, he can serve NS. It's possible. It's just not an attractive prospect to your son. Plenty of people get arrested, some voluntarily.

The next best thing is to be divested of citizenship.

Is it? Why?

President Carter pardoned Vietnam Era draft dodgers, but those who successfully renounced their U.S. citizenships didn't get their citizenships back. I'm certainly not predicting that the Singaporean government will end its NS requirements much less pardon those who skipped them, but both of those things actually happened in the U.S. in the 1970s.

What is the reason for hanging to the citizenship of a country where he would have no rights?

You're assuming it's a choice in his situation. It's not, but let's assume that for sake of argument. What reason is there for him to even lift a finger doing anything about his second citizenship? Being able to answer "No" to a second citizenship question on a Chase account opening application is not a good reason. (Chase could just change the form next year and ask about past citizenships. ;))

What (added) harm is there that the Singaporean government considers your son its citizen? None that I can think of, and I am imaginative in that respect.

The documents have to be returned anyway....

Do they? Says the government requiring your son to serve NS, a requirement your son is not going to comply with?

But if formal renunciation is just going to be a futile exercise....

It would appear so, yes.

....then the documents can just be returned to the relevant authorites.

Or not.

I seem to be missing something. In what way might this be construed as perjury or fraud? Could you please clarify?

It's impossible to commit perjury or fraud with zero communication -- or at least I'm not that imaginative. It is hypothetically possible to commit perjury or fraud with some communication. A defense lawyer (I'm not one) would probably advise a client to shut the (bleep) up in such circumstances, to shut down all communication out of an abundance of caution unless there's a damn good reason to communicate, and then only with his lawyer's approval and in his lawyer's presence. So what's the damn good reason? I can't think of one, but perhaps your imagination is better than mine.

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Re: SG citizen by descent; NS defaulter?

Postby Bliss555 » Mon, 11 Apr 2016 5:06 pm

Thanks for your clarification.

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Re: SG citizen by descent; NS defaulter?

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Mon, 11 Apr 2016 5:43 pm

Bliss555, I'd certainly hate to be your son. You screwed his life up royally when YOU put him in this mess in the first place and are now trying to stuff him up some more. What you are going to do is put your son in the unenviable position of being afraid to get on any plane with an Asian Country destination because if, for some reason (like typhoons, earthquakes, vulcanos and other acts of Gaia) or even mechanical problems with the plane and it has to divert to Singapore, you son is going to jail. All because you think you are smarter than the Singapore government. They've dealt with your kind before and know exactly how to handle it. And your son. We've tried to give you straight answer, BBC has tried his best to confuse you, but at the end of the day you KNOW what has to be done.

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Re: SG citizen by descent; NS defaulter?

Postby BBCWatcher » Mon, 11 Apr 2016 5:51 pm

There's another Singaporean law your son can violate (and probably already has): failure to pay mandatory MediShield Life premiums (taxes) that started in November, 2015. You can read about the penalties and the government's recovery options here. Even if renunciation were possible, these premiums are still legally owed up to the point of renunciation under Singapore's laws.

That's another, separate choice he has. He can pay MediShield Life premiums if he wishes, as he's also legally required to do. For the record, MediShield Life only helps pay for medical care at public hospitals and clinics in Singapore, so it'd be "awkward" for him to benefit from MediShield Life with an outstanding, delinquent NS obligation. If he opts not to pay his MediShield Life premiums then that imagined defense attorney would have another reason to recommend he not open any lines of communication.

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Re: SG citizen by descent; NS defaulter?

Postby BBCWatcher » Mon, 11 Apr 2016 5:52 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:....BBC has tried his best to confuse you....

By agreeing? Wow, thanks. ;)

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Re: SG citizen by descent; NS defaulter?

Postby BBCWatcher » Mon, 11 Apr 2016 5:58 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:You screwed his life up royally when YOU put him in this mess in the first place....

Come to think of it, this part I don't agree with.

The bottom line is that your son will either need to serve NS or will need to avoid stepping foot within a particular ~278 square miles of our planet's surface (plus a few more square miles to include Singapore's territorial waters). Yes, guard against flight diversions. Is yours a royal screwup? I'd vote no. There are plenty of ways parents can screw up, badly, and this isn't anywhere near the top of that list. Besides, it's now his adult decision to make, and there is no time machine available. Indeed, he made his decision: he didn't and doesn't want to serve.

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Re: SG citizen by descent; NS defaulter?

Postby ecureilx » Mon, 11 Apr 2016 6:04 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:Bliss555, I'd certainly hate to be your son.


At least Bliss555 repeatedly says he has no intention to cheat :) And so has he been teaching his son. Though all actions are to the contrary.

And to serious, after reading to many pages of theories and hypothesis of BBCW, I am now doubting the stories of Govt going after Grandparents etc, for incomplete NS. Maybe SG gov does let sleeping dogs lie ? i.e. those who absolutely do nothing ...

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Re: SG citizen by descent; NS defaulter?

Postby ecureilx » Mon, 11 Apr 2016 6:08 pm

BBCWatcher wrote:Come to think of it, this part I don't agree with.

The bottom line is that your son will either need to serve NS or will need to avoid stepping foot within a particular ~278 square miles of our planet's surface (plus a few more square miles to include Singapore's territorial waters). Yes, guard against flight diversions. Is yours a royal screwup? I'd vote no. There are plenty of ways parents can screw up, badly, and this isn't anywhere near the top of that list. Besides, it's now his adult decision to make, and there is no time machine available. Indeed, he made his decision: he didn't and doesn't want to serve.


Come to think of it, how will it go if he joined the Navy and the vessel docked in Singapore ? Or Joined the Air Force and his plane landed in Singapore for RnR ? Serious question.

PS, you haven't seen to what extreme Mindef will go, in getting those who dodge NS. Leaving out your theories etc.


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