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SG citizen by descent; NS defaulter?

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Re: RE: Re: SG citizen by descent; NS defaulter?

Postby ecureilx » Sun, 10 Apr 2016 1:13 pm

BBCWatcher wrote:He is a dual citizen and, under present law anyway, will remain so for life assuming he never steps foot in Singapore (even for a flight connection). That seems like a paradox, doesn't it? Not really.


Incredible .....

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Re: SG citizen by descent; NS defaulter?

Postby Bliss555 » Sun, 10 Apr 2016 2:15 pm

Thanks for all of your replies. Just couple more points to clarify if someone knows: I read somewhere that renunciation might be accepted while the person is still kept on Mindef's list as a defaulter? Also, for future references, how does one legally refer to oneself, example on job appls,? If Singapore citizenship documents have been returned, the person is entitled to consider himself a citizen of his original country only? Would it amount to omission or non-disclosure if one does not add Singapore in his citizenship declaration? For all practical purposes, he is no longer a Singapore citizen. Anyone know if it would be against the law in some way to omit Singapore citizen in any kind of official form in the US or elsewhere after renunciation even if the Singapore government does not register it?Also,would it be better to go through the renunciation process or simply return the documents back to the Singapore government with a letter saying that he is renouncing citizenship?

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Re: SG citizen by descent; NS defaulter?

Postby BBCWatcher » Sun, 10 Apr 2016 2:47 pm

Mad Scientist, you only reiterated what I posted, not contradicted it. You also used more words. (On edit: Before you replaced your post.) =D>
Last edited by BBCWatcher on Sun, 10 Apr 2016 3:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: SG citizen by descent; NS defaulter?

Postby BBCWatcher » Sun, 10 Apr 2016 3:03 pm

Bliss555 wrote:I read somewhere that renunciation might be accepted while the person is still kept on Mindef's list as a defaulter?

I suppose just about anything is possible, but let's assume not for purposes of this discussion.

Also, for future references, how does one legally refer to oneself, example on job appls,?

Citizenship(s) is(are) never asked in U.S. job applications (or at least never supposed to be asked) since it would be prima facie evidence of illegal national origin discrimination to ask, with the sole exceptions of national security-related jobs (and not always even then), the Presidency, and the Vice Presidency ("natural born citizen" Constitutional requirement). Prospective employers ask only for I-9 certification.

It's very rare in the United States that anybody would ask, or even can legally ask, about an individual's citizenship(s), particularly other citizenships. The exact numbers are hard to determine, but in all probability millions of U.S. citizens possess one or more other citizenships.

If Singapore citizenship documents have been returned, the person is entitled to consider himself a citizen of his original country only?

Your son can consider himself a citizen of the world, if he wishes. But if asked what his citizenships are (not on an ordinary job application), the only truthful answer would be U.S. and Singapore. If asked "Are you a U.S. citizen?" then he can truthfully answer "Yes," full stop.

Would it amount to omission or non-disclosure if one does not add Singapore in his citizenship declaration?

Yes, of course. (On edit: But what "citizenship declaration"? Such a declaration is at least quite uncommon.)

Anyone know if it would be against the law in some way to omit Singapore citizen in any kind of official form in the US or elsewhere after renunciation even if the Singapore government does not register it?

Yes, it typically would be against the law, such as laws against making false statements. His Singaporean citizenship does not end unless and until the attempted renunciation is accepted. Analogously, his U.S. citizenship does not end (or is not deemed to have ended) unless and until he pays $2350 and gets a Certificate of Loss of Nationality (CLN) from the U.S. State Department. Governments solely decide who are and who are not their citizens, not the individuals. It's a right reserved for sovereigns because it is a sovereign construction.

The U.S. has no particular issue with its citizens possessing other citizenships, with the possible narrow exceptions noted above. In fact, there was one U.S. president who was a dual citizen. President James Buchanan was both a natural born U.S. citizen and, technically, also a British citizen for his entire life. (On edit: I forgot about President Abraham Lincoln. The tiny nation of San Marino bestowed its citizenship on him in 1861. I don't think there's any evidence that Lincoln asked for the honor. Anyway, to net it out, your son isn't unusual. Almost all the early Americans were running away from something, after all. ;))
Last edited by BBCWatcher on Sun, 10 Apr 2016 4:04 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: SG citizen by descent; NS defaulter?

Postby Mad Scientist » Sun, 10 Apr 2016 3:29 pm

.....
The positive thinker sees the invisible, feels the intangible, and achieves the impossible.Yahoo !!!

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Re: SG citizen by descent; NS defaulter?

Postby Bliss555 » Sun, 10 Apr 2016 4:09 pm

Thank you very much for taking the time to reply. And yes, there are orgs in the US that ask about citizenships like banks because they want to run a background check.I am wondering if the NS default thing would affect the appl,and show up in the background check.
Just to clarify Mad Scientist, no I did not have my son stay in Singapore to get the best out of education here before university there! In fact, I did not want him to be schooled here at all, was not to my liking, I myself did not go to school except towards the end and did not want my son to go through it. Very trying circumstances prevented an earlier departure. I have always gone by the adage to never break the law, and tell my son the same, so this whole thing and the government's intractability and laws that make criminals out of innocent young boys/young men is very painful. Now, it is up to God! Thank you all again for your kind patience. Wish us luck.Like you said, BBCW, anything is possible.

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Re: SG citizen by descent; NS defaulter?

Postby BBCWatcher » Sun, 10 Apr 2016 5:41 pm

Bliss555 wrote:And yes, there are orgs in the US that ask about citizenships like banks because they want to run a background check.

That's (probably) news to me, and I've dealt with a lot of banks (and credit unions) in the U.S. Do you have any more details? The EEOC is rather clear about this stuff.

That said, it's certainly not a crime to possess another citizenship, the question seldom (if ever) comes up (and really cannot be asked without the prospective employer risking a legal violation), and employment discrimination on that basis is illegal. Although I understand your concern for your son, I don't think this particular concern has merit unless possibly he's planning a career in some deeply U.S. national security-related field, with some employer that requires travel to Singapore within the scope of his legitimate employment duties, or in high level elected politics. (Any maybe not even then.) This really is a triviality within the U.S. context.

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Re: SG citizen by descent; NS defaulter?

Postby Bliss555 » Sun, 10 Apr 2016 5:52 pm

Good to know. About the banks, they don't directly ask about other citizenships but ask what other passports/identification numbers of other countries held. Are they in violation of any laws in so asking? And if they do a background check using that, this NS default thing will show up and be an issue or not? It would be a relief if it indeed would be a triviality as you say.

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Re: SG citizen by descent; NS defaulter?

Postby BBCWatcher » Sun, 10 Apr 2016 9:05 pm

Bliss555 wrote:About the banks, they don't directly ask about other citizenships but ask what other passports/identification numbers of other countries held.

Here's a quick, nonscientific survey of the account opening questions (note: not job application/interview questions) that major U.S. banks ask:

  • Citibank (#3 largest bank) asks whether the new account holder is a U.S. citizen. Your son answers yes, and that's that.
  • Wells Fargo (#4 largest bank): same.
  • Bank of America (#2 largest bank): same.
  • U.S. Bank (#5 largest bank) asks whether the new account holder is a U.S. citizen. Your son answers yes. U.S. Bank also asks whether the new account holder is a citizen of another country and, if so, which one. Your son answers yes, and Singapore. There are no further questions: no Singapore passport numbers, no Singapore ID numbers. (U.S. Bank does not even ask about additional citizenships and assumes only two are possible when, in fact, more than two are possible.)
  • Chase (#1 largest bank): same as U.S. Bank.
When opening an account, banks are legally allowed to ask citizenship questions within narrow bounds and cannot discriminate on the basis of citizenship. Your son answers truthfully, his account is opened, and that's that. It's not an issue. The only exception here is if your son were a citizen of, say, North Korea (i.e. an embargoed/sanctioned country). Then the two banks that even ask such questions might have some legitimate, legal issues.

As it happens, none of these banks are particularly good banks in terms of offering competitive, attractive checking or savings accounts. They just happen to be the top five banks in the U.S. in terms of assets.

Access to U.S. banking services simply isn't a reason to be concerned. That's absolutely no problem, and it's not a problem for the millions of Americans possessing multiple citizenships (some involuntarily).

By the way, has he registered with U.S. Selective Service? That's a legal requirement of every young male U.S. person and U.S. resident (legal or illegal). If he fails to do that he would be barred from a few U.S. federal government benefits such as employment and student aid.

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Re: SG citizen by descent; NS defaulter?

Postby Bliss555 » Sun, 10 Apr 2016 9:30 pm

I was referring to job applications/interviews. And yes he has registered with US Selective Service. if this NS default thing shows up in a background check,is that a big deal, a minus point? It is not a crime per se in international law /definition, right. Is it something to even hide in job interviews etc? The US citizens bureau told me that while there is no law prohibiting a US citizen from serving in another country's (non-hostile) military, it is not, as a policy, encouraged.

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Re: SG citizen by descent; NS defaulter?

Postby SalehaTeo » Sun, 10 Apr 2016 10:58 pm

Hi!

My boyfriend is facing the same predicament. His Singaporean parents made the move to Netherlands, and he was born and bred there. His parents renounced their Singapore citizenship officially when they received their Dutch's Citizenship, however when he was born, they applied Singapore Citizenship by Descent for him.

When he was 16, he received the NS registration letter, however due to the wrong understanding that ignoring the letter means an automatic renunciation of citizenship when he turns 22.

I must add that he did NOT utilise any benefits associated with the Singapore citizenship as he already had the Dutch's citizenship by default.


Right now, he's turning 21, and he's not registered for NS, and we're both aware that defaulting NS is a criminal offence, and we're quite petrified.

He's due to come back for summer holidays and i'm afraid that he might get arrested :(

Is this something we should be worried about?
Should we call MINDEF directly to check if he has any NS obligations?

Thank you for your help!

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Re: SG citizen by descent; NS defaulter?

Postby BBCWatcher » Sun, 10 Apr 2016 11:44 pm

Bliss555 wrote:if this NS default thing shows up in a background check,is that a big deal, a minus point?

I have no idea how it would show up on an ordinary (or even rather extraordinary) U.S. employer's background check.

But take two steps back here. What's the alternative? He has already defaulted, right? That bell cannot be unrung, so it's no use worrying about that. In the incredibly, vanishingly unlikely event that somebody is bothered by his failure to perform NS in Singapore at age 18, that person is still going to be bothered no matter what happens from this point forward. Unless your son has a time machine, this horse has left the barn.

However, in the unlikely event he's even asked, people will be quite bothered if he ever lies and is caught in a lie. That could even be criminal. So he mustn't do that. That's really what intensive background checks are about, if/when they occur: the follow-up questions. It's hard for me to imagine anybody in the U.S. caring whether a U.S. citizen skipped out of some foreign military's service obligation, but most would care a great deal if he lies about it in the unlikely event he's ever asked. Some unapologetic, matter-of-fact variation of "Yes, the Singaporean government wanted me to serve in their military, but I'm an American and refused" is the way to handle that.

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Re: SG citizen by descent; NS defaulter?

Postby BBCWatcher » Sun, 10 Apr 2016 11:51 pm

SalehaTeo wrote:Should we call MINDEF directly to check if he has any NS obligations?

Good idea.

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Re: SG citizen by descent; NS defaulter?

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Mon, 11 Apr 2016 12:16 am

SalehaTeo, Rather than wading through the confusion, just go to the beginning of this thread, page 1 and the first 4 or 5 posts of page 2. The OP's case is exactly the same as your bf's, he off and running with no issues. Don't read the other posts as they will tend to just confuse you.
Have your bf call Mindef or the CMPB, if you bf is over the age of 22 and has never lived or schooled in Singapore, then he should have no issues. But get it from the horse's mouth.

SMS

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Re: SG citizen by descent; NS defaulter?

Postby Bliss555 » Mon, 11 Apr 2016 11:22 am

Apparently, if one writes a letter stating intention to renounce Singapore citizenship together with the documents like citizenship cert etc, and return them to ICA,the male citizen's citizenship will automatically lapse when he reaches age 22 as Mindef will not be consulted since there will be no forms to forward. In either case, he will be on Mindef's watchlist as a defaulter, but through the formal renunciation process, he will remain a dual citizen as Mindef will reject the renunciation application whereas without an application, it does not go to Mindef for approval. Does anyone know what are the legal ramifications (into the future) if any of not submitting a formal application of renunciation and just returning the SG citizenship certs?


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