Should we appeal for pr ?

[zinc32]

Hi I had sponsored my husband pr application the outcome came negative and we have already appealed once ... The outcome is still negative I am wondering if it makes sense to appeal as I don't understand the point in rejecting his pr application

Our background
I am pr for last 8 yrs
Husband is on EP for last 4 years in sg
Husband has paid iras 2 years
We are married now for over 4 years
Have a newborn this year and his pr application is pending
All other soft points : community involvement , volunteering , insurance purchased in sg .. We are Indians in case you are wondering on the race

To me waiting and taking a fresh appointment doesn't make sense as none of the above changes ..,was thinking if our sons pr outcome is positive we can appeal but even that is taking time .., as I believe we only have 6 months window to appeal ...

In case some of you aren't aware there have been successful appeal outcomes ( one in my office .., appeal thrice , got it 4 th time )
For us it's very imp to understand if we can have a stable future here imagine what signals are they sending if my son is given pr while the father is rejected .. We need to be accepted as a family here to be able to see a future .. Your advises are welcome


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[singaporeflyer]

Hi I had sponsored my husband pr application the outcome came negative and we have already appealed once ... The outcome is still negative I am wondering if it makes sense to appeal as I don't understand the point in rejecting his pr application

Our background
I am pr for last 8 yrs
Husband is on EP for last 4 years in sg
Husband has paid iras 2 years
We are married now for over 4 years
Have a newborn this year and his pr application is pending
All other soft points : community involvement , volunteering , insurance purchased in sg .. We are Indians in case you are wondering on the race

To me waiting and taking a fresh appointment doesn't make sense as none of the above changes ..,was thinking if our sons pr outcome is positive we can appeal but even that is taking time .., as I believe we only have 6 months window to appeal ...

In case some of you aren't aware there have been successful appeal outcomes ( one in my office .., appeal thrice , got it 4 th time )
For us it's very imp to understand if we can have a stable future here imagine what signals are they sending if my son is given pr while the father is rejected .. We need to be accepted as a family here to be able to see a future .. Your advises are welcome


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Appeals very rarely change the outcome of the PR application, unless there is very drastic changes in the application information during the appeal.

I would suggest you to wait a bit more and try again later (may be after a year?)

Your son's PR is still pending and so it would be good if you wait patiently and then decide.

Last, 4 years in SG but only 2 IRAS NOA? Insurance purchased in SG would not count, as it is for self right?

[sundaymorningstaple]

All other soft points : community involvement , volunteering , insurance purchased in sg .. We are Indians in case you are wondering on the race.

Nope we weren't wondering on the race. The sentence before told us. Those things have been done to death by applicants over the past 5-8 years and not it's not even a talking point let along a soft point. Too many have joined in for a year so that they could get brownie points while trying to get PR or Citizenship and as soon as they get it all charitable works stop except that which benefits themselves. I know. I've been a GRL for the past 7 years and I've seen it numerous times as has the rest of Singapore. ICA isn't stupid.

[sundaymorningstaple]

Just because you know of one appeal that was successful, did you see the contents of the original application and the three subsequent appeals? There may well have been major changes that are not visibly pasted on his forehead for all to see.

Oh, the purchase of insurance and even a house/condo/HDB flat will not count towards obtaining PR or even Citizenship for that matter. That is not contributing to Singapore at all, but just an investment for you to divest yourself of, for a handsome profit after obtaining PR in Canada or Australia.

[zinc32]

Well I understand what you say but absence of these points might as well become a negative if not positive so let's leave that...
There is only so much one can do to make his/her application stronger and in our case we have .. For the case of successful appeal I would say the person got lucky as I don't think ica will ever entertain anyone the way they did ... He had only nominal increments , a letter writing that he will make his children locals and an appeal that his wife ain't getting job without pr ... They kept rejecting and he kept appealing so that's the story ... Each case is differnt and I am here to listen to view points that can add different dimension to our case which we might be missing... What's more my husband company is dicey and he may be out of it in some time making situation more unstable so all the more I would want to look at improving the situation


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[x9200]

Some clearly think the number of appeals filed also counts. No surprise they fail to realise, if unjustified, and if it counts it would be a negative score.

[PNGMK]

What are the occupations of the involved parties... that is a massive factor you have not mentioned in the case of the alleged successful appealler (who may have been lying to piss you off) and a big factor in your husbands lack of success I suspect.

[sundaymorningstaple]

All right, if nobody is going look at the elephant in the room I will.

She got her PR 8 years ago when PR was extremely easy to get (breathing still, okay, PR). She's been a PR 8 years. Unknown if she would have gotten PR today with the new criteria/agendas. Husband who wasn't husband until just before/or just after arriving in Singapore is on EP and arrived post 2011 GE which is when the fit hit the shan regarding the Indian demographic shift here by slightly over 2 percentage points and we all remember what happened. In fact, it's only recently that we've seen some potential light at the end of a rather long dark tunnel regarding the granting of PRs to Indians.

Now, I don't have any proof of this, aside from hearsay rumours, but it does make sense. Let's suppose for a moment that under the Post GE2011 pogrom against Indian nationals would have caused the PR sponsor (the OP) to not get PR whereby before it was easy as she was probably educated and was single so could have been good for the country if she married a local. Instead, she married an Indian national either recently arrived or just before his arrival (marriage of convenience - probably not, but how will ICA look at it? He would/did gain an Employment Pass but was subsequently rejected for PR. My thoughts on this are simple. Singapore is a Patriarchal Society and believes that the wife will follow the husband. So, while she is a PR, as long as he isn't, they cannot buy HDB (although condo/private can) and if he loses his EP (Likely at some point in the future) then if he cannot find another job, will have to move on. This way the government may be removing one PR that wouldn't have made PR today under the new criteria? Or, if the son get PR, then he will have to do NS so they will gain cannon fodder but still have the upper hand as well ...... It maybe far fetched, but we've see enough strange ones over the last couple of years, that I wouldn't put it past ICA. Something to chew on.

Also, as PNGMK mentioned, we also don't know his industry or their income levels. These also could have a bearing on the rejections.

[zinc32]

Singapore a patriarchal society ? Really ?? I don't think so given the number of women here who outnumber men in running households and working ratio....
Anyways that's another point

Ques in occupation - banking & sales
Sal combined > 13 k

I don't have a view point on your assumption of the indian nationals ratio ... Yes it was skewed but that doesn't seems to change the sentiments drastically
Buying house : doesn't matter which gender is pr anyone can buy provided 3 yrs condition are met . If citizen then can buy direct as well
From
Hdb with foreign spouse ..,

Son getting pr - yes govt wil have a upper hand but that's what we are ok with as he would also get the socio Eco benefits of living here ..


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[sundaymorningstaple]

I don't have a view point on your assumption of the indian nationals ratio ... Yes it was skewed but that doesn't seems to change the sentiments drastically

What sentiments is that? If you had researched these forums you will find that which I speak of is/was very prevalent over the past 5 years since GE2011.

Anyway, good luck. Sorry we all didn't give you the answers/confirmation you wanted. We just give the best answers we have based on the accumulated data we have gained here and the trends we are able to see. However, we cannot predict how ICA will look at things next month and that's why every poster counts as it all adds to the flavour of the stew here.

[BBCWatcher]

....So, while she is a PR, as long as he isn't, they cannot buy HDB (although condo/private can) and if he loses his EP (Likely at some point in the future) then if he cannot find another job, will have to move on....

Zinc32 could put in a LTVP application for her husband to test your hypotheses fairly well. Have you and your husband considered that option, Zinc32?

Instead of trying to appeal a second time you could ask ICA to consider him for a LTVP. ICA might require a fresh LTVP application, but it doesn't hurt to ask.

A LTVP (or LTVP+) is a common stepping stone to PR. It means his employer can keep him on by applying for a Letter of Consent (LoC) from the Ministry of Manpower, or another employer could hire him the same way. He would switch from a specific employer's sponsorship to your sponsorship, so he has greater immigration stability in Singapore with a LTVP. If SMS is even partially correct then a LTVP would be an effective way for ICA to keep your husband at "arms length" for at least a little while. He wouldn't be entitled to CPF, HDB resale housing, or MediShield Life benefits, as examples, so the government isn't going to have any greater financial burden with a LTVP approval.

I have to assume at least one of SMS's hypotheses is correct, that the government -- every government, really -- doesn't like "PR shopping" (or "citizenship shopping"), meaning that a couple tries to nail down as many PRs and/or citizenships from as many countries (typically Western countries) as possible. That's perfectly understandable, but it's also not great for a stable marriage and strong nuclear family life. (An intercontinental long distance relationship is quite tough.) A LTVP isn't that -- rather the opposite, actually -- so ICA might go for it.

[zinc32]

Thanks bbcwatcher .. That's what we intend to do in case the EP goes off

On the other hand moving from EP to LTVP ( loc) job wise wouldn't weigh down the application of his pr ? Whether we appeal or apply fresh after a year .. I personally thought candidates on EP stand a better chance but again candidates with families ties here in Singapore also have a strong chance so wouldn't know which way the application for pr might be considered


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[singaporeflyer]

Thanks bbcwatcher .. That's what we intend to do in case the EP goes off

On the other hand moving from EP to LTVP ( loc) job wise wouldn't weigh down the application of his pr ? Whether we appeal or apply fresh after a year .. I personally thought candidates on EP stand a better chance but again candidates with families ties here in Singapore also have a strong chance so wouldn't know which way the application for pr might be considered


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My 2 cents, If he is on EP and you apply PR for him under Spouse of SC/PR scheme that would be better than moving to LTVP and then you applying PR for him under Spouse of SC/PR scheme.

But anyway, give it some more time - may be a year and then reapply. Appeals are not going to help in general.

[ecureilx]

Singapore a patriarchal society ? Really ?? I don't think so given the number of women here who outnumber men in running households and working ratio....
Anyways that's another point

See, you mix up natives vs visitors. Just because the native female population outnumbers the male population don't mean the society is matriarchal .. just saying ..

Nope we weren't wondering on the race. The sentence before told us. Those things have been done to death by applicants over the past 5-8 years and not it's not even a talking point let along a soft point. Too many have joined in for a year so that they could get brownie points while trying to get PR or Citizenship and as soon as they get it all charitable works stop except that which benefits themselves. I know. I've been a GRL for the past 7 years and I've seen it numerous times as has the rest of Singapore. ICA isn't stupid.

To be fair, SMS, the times the Sub Cons put in Volunteering - well, it's really mind boggling. Those who stepped in to volunteer, while trying PR or those going for SC, well, they left too many dead bodies, with their extremely aggressive and powerful efforts, so they get what they want. But they did leave their legacy behind, as the most efficient and excellent people to work with, with extremely high standards, and demanding 100% commitment, and taking out the word fun out of the Volunteer work.

Atleast one organisation I volunteer now clearly state in the volunteer form that the association WILL NOT PROVIDE ANY REFERENCE letter for volunteering work, as they figured it out the most active and aggressive ones joining are only joining to get letters, and once they achieve PR/Sc, they drop out - vanish. Overpowering is the correct word that comes to my mind.

[BBCWatcher]

That's what we intend to do in case the EP goes off

Caution on that: It can take about 6 months to get a LTVP decision for a foreign spouse. If an EP "goes off" that starts a 30 day clock to get out of Singapore.

Singaporeflyer: I think the concern you raise was merited back when LTVP holders couldn't work in Singapore. Yes, back then an EP holder would look more attractive than a LTVP holder, other things being equal. But that changed fairly recently. Both LTVP and LTVP+ holders can now work with Letters of Consent, so the employment and income characteristics ICA has to consider are the same (or could even be better since a job change becomes somewhat easier). Or did you have something else in mind?