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Everyone I know is leaving or already left

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sundaymorningstaple
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Re: Everyone I know is leaving or already left

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Fri, 12 Feb 2016 9:08 pm

Addadude wrote:I dunno. I'm beginning to think SMS is Lazarus Man.


Well, I have re-invented myself 3 times over the past 50 years (well 4x if you count the 3 years as a Chopper pilot in the late 60's). I don't count milking cows as a kid!

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Re: Everyone I know is leaving or already left

Postby Strong Eagle » Fri, 12 Feb 2016 9:50 pm

BBCWatcher wrote:
Strong Eagle wrote:But when entire industries downsize or offshore, three things happen, all bad.

I agree with you, but while it's bad for foreign workers it's working exactly as the government wants for resident workers.


No, it's not what the government wants at all, they just cannot stop it. I personally outsourced Singapore based call centers that had expat managers and local Singaporeans as employees. The managers ended up in Manila, the Singapore employees ended up unemployed.

I also assisted in the planning stages of a large MNC moving virtually all of its technical staff to KL. Singaporeans were given the opportunity to move to KL at a far lower salary or they were let go. This included programmers, business process developers, security people, and tier 2 support. Again, expat managers and a handful of expat experts were without jobs but far more locals were without jobs as well.

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Re: Everyone I know is leaving or already left

Postby JR8 » Fri, 12 Feb 2016 10:34 pm

For BBC's assertion to be true it would have to be a given that the locals have the skills/experience that the mid/higher FTs bring in. But do they? After all it's long been required at that level to have to petition for your P1/2 (etc?) stating clearly why that is so. The employer also has to pay an FT a lot more than a local, so when they do so they have made a reasoned decision. In simple terms logic would suggest that these FTs are in SG to do jobs locals cannot.

And I suspect that in a fast evolving world re: technology, financial products etc/etc that in the absence of SGns being willing to go abroad to learn cutting-edge and niche skills (to take home), that such FTs will be required to keep the economy as dynamic as it has been over recent years.

Blow a cold wind through the sector creating a xenophobic climate. Make FTs think they're just about tolerated but clearly not welcomed and word gets around: And a damn sight faster that it used to, now we're in this 24/7 wired-up world.
'Do it or do not do it: You will regret both' - Kierkegaard

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Re: Everyone I know is leaving or already left

Postby JR8 » Fri, 12 Feb 2016 10:39 pm

And in a parallel to what SE recounts...

My first stint, mid-90s setting up a bank trading floor/mid/back-office. The initial presence opened with 2-3 staff in c93. When I arrived in '94 there were maybe 20. By the time I left in '95 there were around 60. c2 years later there were none. The whole operation moved to HK as it had lower overheads and was easier to do business. The expats, in general, relo'd up there, the locals were laid off.
'Do it or do not do it: You will regret both' - Kierkegaard

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Re: Everyone I know is leaving or already left

Postby x9200 » Sat, 13 Feb 2016 8:53 am

I believe higher skill level FTs were never a problem for the local population perhaps with the exception when making arrogant posts on FB or behaving like AHs in public. However, the mid level is IMHO a different story. While MNCs tend to hire them for the skills and quality, many SMEs looked at them as a cheaper replacement for the local workforce.
The group (a) MNCs and the SMEs not willing to compromise on their quality will end up following the scenario described by SE. The group (b), local SMEs looking for savings will downsize, close down, or if they still can, hire the locals shrinking their profit margin. Now, the important question is if the job loss in the first group is going to be compensated by the hiring of locals in the second group.

BTW, I have noticed that since the work pass policies were tightened the number of half-wit job and residency related posts from "FTs" coming over to SG dropped down very drastically.

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Re: Everyone I know is leaving or already left

Postby the lynx » Sat, 13 Feb 2016 9:40 am

x9200 wrote:BTW, I have noticed that since the work pass policies were tightened the number of half-wit job and residency related posts from "FTs" coming over to SG dropped down very drastically.


So true.

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Re: Everyone I know is leaving or already left

Postby Wd40 » Sat, 13 Feb 2016 12:23 pm

Credit Suisse just posted disastrous results. Deutshe is looking like the next Lehman brothers. Standard Chartered and ANZ are both are rueing their Asia push decision. The last bastion of hope are the local Singapore banks that are still hiring. But its only a matter of time:

https://sg.finance.yahoo.com/news/massi ... 00286.html

Regarding Barclays, everyone I knew has either been lay'd off or quit. I am surprised there is still anyone left there for more layoffs

http://business.asiaone.com/news/barcla ... -worldwide

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Re: Everyone I know is leaving or already left

Postby Wd40 » Sat, 13 Feb 2016 12:31 pm

The key thing is watch the stock markets carefully. It looks very similar to 2008 all over again. There can be massive job losses in Singapore if China does a hard landing, so be prepared and dont over leverage.

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Re: Everyone I know is leaving or already left

Postby earthfriendly » Sat, 13 Feb 2016 1:07 pm

Quoting Vivian Balakrishnan FB as he was visiting Silicon Valley companies with LHL. Do you think these companies had to resort to "sexiness" or "coolness" to encourage people to join the trade? Gimmicky and dumbing down once again. They just don't understand how it works, do they? Lost leaders leading a lost nation.



" Favorite quote from Singaporean Googlers - "We are all engineers - and Google truly values engineers". We have to make engineering sexy again - to persuade many more young people to build the future. "

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Re: Everyone I know is leaving or already left

Postby BBCWatcher » Sat, 13 Feb 2016 2:25 pm

On a global basis the 2008+ Financial Crisis is still in motion. In that respect at least it's similar to what happened in 1929+. During the Great Depression there were substatial national differences, ups and downs, and rolling economic crises.

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Re: Everyone I know is leaving or already left

Postby JR8 » Sun, 14 Feb 2016 4:53 am

In the pastiche SGn kids never stray more than a few hours from their parents homes, and return every weekend to have their laundry done, and mum's home-cooked food. There is the perpetual promise of HDB and CPF, the eternal future security blanket. Even if free-thinking and risk-taking (professionally) were inculcated, why would most choose to? Those things are socially dangerous; 'The nails that sticks up', etc.
I recall from hiring locals into banking some highly intelligent individuals, and most who got to grips with what was required. But none who dazzled by grabbing the chance and surprising management how they took it further (ideas, reporting, suggested revised and better procedures etc).
At a more jaundiced level, we imports were the ones doing up to 80hr weeks, whereas they at the end of a long day - 6pm phhh) often had a pressing reason to go home.
SG is so cushty, I wonder if the locals can ever have what it takes, *the rabid hunger*, to compete in a globally free-market.
And if they don't does it matter, when they can legislate their citizens must be employed by any company coming to SGs shores?
'Do it or do not do it: You will regret both' - Kierkegaard

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Re: Everyone I know is leaving or already left

Postby Wd40 » Sun, 14 Feb 2016 10:35 am

Regarding the topic itself "Everyone I knew is leaving or has left". I find most people stay here on average ~2 Yrs. They either go back with the same company with whom they came or just find another job in another country. The ones that are still here are those with PRs and who already have a house here. These guys came here prior to 2008 and had got their PRs. There are very very few people I know who came here after 2009 and on EP and still here.

So either you find people who have been here for more than 8 years or they have been here for less than 2 years. You will hardly find anyone who has been here for like 2-7 years.

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Re: Everyone I know is leaving or already left

Postby Strong Eagle » Sun, 14 Feb 2016 11:56 am

Wd40 wrote:Regarding the topic itself "Everyone I knew is leaving or has left". I find most people stay here on average ~2 Yrs. They either go back with the same company with whom they came or just find another job in another country. The ones that are still here are those with PRs and who already have a house here. These guys came here prior to 2008 and had got their PRs. There are very very few people I know who came here after 2009 and on EP and still here.

So either you find people who have been here for more than 8 years or they have been here for less than 2 years. You will hardly find anyone who has been here for like 2-7 years.


I was in Singapore for eight years. The goal was to build a boutique project management firm, with 40 or so clients, all Fortune 500, then sell it off to a big ICT player, looking for inroads into consulting services.

The recession of 2008 killed all that. The first thing that MNC's pull back on is ICT expenditures... computers that were supposed to last 4 years now last 6.

In the world of ICT, the recession forced major changes, changes which had been on the horizon... the downturn made them a reality.

First was a plunge into remote managed services... everybody can now access your local PC from the help desk. Buh-bye local support.

Next, nobody actually goes onsite to fix anything any more... onsite techs are delivery boys... swap out one piece of equipment for another, the let remote tech support take care of the rest.

All of this was good for me... I implemented several managed services programs that followed these constructs.

What killed my company is that the ownership of IT services in the region for an MNC moved out of the region and into a global PMO most often controlled in the USA, UK, or EU. The net result was twofold:

a) The MNC now wanted vendors with global breadth.

b) Hiring decisions were now being made thousands of miles away from Asia. Catalyst Project Solutions? Who the hell is that and why should I care?

This consolidation of control into global PMO's, coupled with the drive to consolidated remote help desk services, and combined with the "delivery boy" mode of onsite support means that

a) My business model is obsolete... I have neither local managers with the capability to hire me, nor the scope to be a player with the global PMO.

b) Financial services companies have been very quick to adopt this model. Say bye-bye to thousands of jobs.

Singapore used to offer a safe port of haven for MNC's wishing an Asian presence. Now, there are too many other locales offering equal, if not better, business environments, along with lower labor rates, and thus, future opportunities for small vendors like me in Singapore become even more limited.

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Re: Everyone I know is leaving or already left

Postby Wd40 » Sun, 14 Feb 2016 10:46 pm

Thanks Strong Eagle, for the perspective as an entrepreneur. Quite sad that SG has come to this. I think SG will still rank high in terms of ease of doing business, but whether it is a viable place to do business is a different thing. Global large companies will probably still have their namesake Asian headquarters here just for the sake of stability and predictability that SG offers, and to reduce their tax liability, that's about it.

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Re: Everyone I know is leaving or already left

Postby Primrose Hill » Mon, 15 Feb 2016 11:08 am

This is a rather transient place.


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