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Everyone I know is leaving or already left

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Re: RE: Re: Everyone I know is leaving or already left

Postby x9200 » Mon, 04 Apr 2016 5:20 pm

Wd40 wrote:
JR8 wrote:
x9200 wrote:Not really. Immigrants strongly imply the intention of more permanent settlement.


Agreed. And if taken in the EU context the assumption would be people fleeing war and/or economic migrants. I.e. skills or intention to work doesn't come into it.

Well, talking about UK in particular, from the news I have read and from hearing people talk, I have seen the word immigrant used for foreigners who are there on work permit as well. Basically anyone who is "living" in UK and non UK national is an immigrant in my opinion.

Have a read through this news and note how foreigners and immigrants are used interchangeably.

http://www.theguardian.com/media/realit ... rs-britain

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It doesn't matter on what type of pass they are. What matters, if they arrived with the intention to settle there. The quoted paper deals with the immigrants, not expat-like or seasonal workers. They intend to stay in the UK.

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Re: Everyone I know is leaving or already left

Postby x9200 » Mon, 04 Apr 2016 5:30 pm

rajagainstthemachine wrote:wouldn't the term economic migrant be the best term to describe an FT ?

Going for a better pay or carrier opportunities alone doesn't make one an economic migrant.

If you want to leave your country because of poverty and all related issues and settle down in SG for a better pay and lifestyle, this would be economic migration.

Highly qualified / skilled foreigner contract workers would probably be the closest to FT.

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Re: RE: Re: Everyone I know is leaving or already left

Postby JR8 » Mon, 04 Apr 2016 6:06 pm

Wd40 wrote:
JR8 wrote:
x9200 wrote:Not really. Immigrants strongly imply the intention of more permanent settlement.

Agreed. And if taken in the EU context the assumption would be people fleeing war and/or economic migrants. I.e. skills or intention to work doesn't come into it.

Well, talking about UK in particular, from the news I have read and from hearing people talk, I have seen the word immigrant used for foreigners who are there on work permit as well. Basically anyone who is "living" in UK and non UK national is an immigrant in my opinion.


That piece is a bit of positioning, Guardian [Labour mouthpiece] vs Telegraph [Sometimes aligned w/Conservatives, though notably *not* over the EU].
See how the various UK papers lie on the political spectrum...
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So each paper is publishing content aligned with the respective prejudices of their readership lol. This is why I've cautioned recently that The Guardian is perhaps the last non-tabloid that you can read online for free - but be very aware of how left-wing it is, and of all the biased allegiances that go together with that. It is *not* the view of your average Brit. That might be 1/2-way between The Times and The Telegraph, as reflected by the current UK government.
Also note that a front-page headline (like that Telegraph one) is a major 'dog-whistle' to sell papers, invariably a highly exaggerated single statement that might bear little connection to the article content behind it.

In my own mind you might have 3 strands of 'immigrants'.
1) People who come to work for a few years with no intention of staying. I'm not sure if there is a single-word handle for them... For example I might say 'I've let my flat to X, he's a French/Australian/American/etc accountant'. More an expat than someone immigrating. Point being, the lack of presumption of intention to stay.
2) 'Immigrant'. I think it might apply to a point-in-time current status, but IMO is of almost zero relevance in the longer term. I.e. if you moved to the UK intending to stay... 'He emigrated from xyz to London' applies. But unlike US/SG etc there isn't a sense of an ongoing, material or historic flow of such people. Immigrants don't arrive in the UK and remain called immigrants for long. Not if they get a passport and make at least some effort to fit in. Ghettoising and trying to impose their imported culture is perhaps one reason they might remain termed as 'immigrants' though. Esp. in front page headlines.
3) Economic migrants. This one is ripe for the papers politicising what they're called.
To stereotype:
Labour are pro-immigration and they get most votes from it. So, The Guardian will position itself such that the UK has a 'moral duty to let the asylum seekers in'. Totally self-serving.
The Telegraph would likely play up how such economic migrants threaten the way of life of the established middle-classes. Hence the front page headline is going to be a shouty crystallisation of that.

Ain't the free press a gas :-D
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Re: Everyone I know is leaving or already left

Postby JR8 » Mon, 04 Apr 2016 6:28 pm

x9200 wrote:The "FT" thing... I have mixed feelings about it. Personally I see it slightly negative but not in the superiority context. It just sounds childish or propaganda to call somebody this way and having foreigner talents does not imply lack of local talents in some other areas. The acronym also carries a different load. While I would never say to anybody "foreign talent" except of being sarcastic, I may say F-T.


Agreed. It is like trying to put them on something of a pedestal to politically justify their presence. But at the same time inadvertently opening them up as a broad and easy target.

It also has a weird (to me) sub-text or connotations. Like calling a stripper a 'performing artiste'. What expat in SG would consider never mind refer to themselves as a 'talent', unless as suggested taking the p*** out of the silliness of the term.
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Re: Everyone I know is leaving or already left

Postby JR8 » Mon, 04 Apr 2016 6:31 pm

rajagainstthemachine wrote:wouldn't the term economic migrant be the best term to describe an FT ?


IMO 'migrant' suggests permanence, 'economic migrant' suggests moving for state benefits, entirely negative. Come to think of it 'expat' probably is the broadest and most accurate term.
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Re: Everyone I know is leaving or already left

Postby rajagainstthemachine » Mon, 04 Apr 2016 7:24 pm

JR8 wrote:
rajagainstthemachine wrote:wouldn't the term economic migrant be the best term to describe an FT ?


IMO 'migrant' suggests permanence, 'economic migrant' suggests moving for state benefits, entirely negative. Come to think of it 'expat' probably is the broadest and most accurate term.


So there we have it, we've coined the word for FT on ahem "an expat forum"
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Re: Everyone I know is leaving or already left

Postby x9200 » Mon, 04 Apr 2016 7:31 pm

There will be many people who understand expat referring to someone on an expat package.

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Re: Everyone I know is leaving or already left

Postby earthfriendly » Mon, 04 Apr 2016 11:55 pm

JR8 wrote:
x9200 wrote:The "FT" thing... I have mixed feelings about it. Personally I see it slightly negative but not in the superiority context. It just sounds childish or propaganda to call somebody this way and having foreigner talents does not imply lack of local talents in some other areas. The acronym also carries a different load. While I would never say to anybody "foreign talent" except of being sarcastic, I may say F-T.


Agreed. It is like trying to put them on something of a pedestal to politically justify their presence. But at the same time inadvertently opening them up as a broad and easy target.



Exactly. Ruling party think they can just stealthily slip this thru their citizens. They have been termed the most cunning govt. For a reason. They have belittled and patronized their own citizens for too long.

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Re: Everyone I know is leaving or already left

Postby nakatago » Tue, 05 Apr 2016 7:13 am

earthfriendly wrote:Exactly. Ruling party think they can just stealthily slip this thru their citizens. They have been termed the most cunning govt. For a reason. They have belittled and patronized their own citizens for too long.


You're wrong.





They've belittled and patronized citizens of other countries as well.

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Re: Everyone I know is leaving or already left

Postby earthfriendly » Tue, 05 Apr 2016 8:59 am

Good. Now you know how it feels like to be treated this way by the SG govt. They have now managed to offend both foreign and local workforce with one large stroke :mrgreen: .

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Re: Everyone I know is leaving or already left

Postby nakatago » Tue, 05 Apr 2016 9:07 am

earthfriendly wrote:Good. Now you know how it feels like to be treated this way by the SG govt. They have now managed to offend both foreign and local workforce with one large stroke :mrgreen: .


You're wrong again.


I felt belittled and patronized a few months in already after coming into Singapore.


:P

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Re: Everyone I know is leaving or already left

Postby earthfriendly » Tue, 05 Apr 2016 9:34 am

Hear, hear. Their overbearing ways know no bounds. It cuts across cultures and nations. It is multi-cultural .

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Re: Everyone I know is lea ving or already left

Postby earthfriendly » Tue, 05 Apr 2016 9:57 am

Perusing this forum, I was surprised at the govt blatant immigration policy. So much of it driven by the social $$$$ status of the applicants/countries. Question like, am I $$$ worthy enough to become PR/citizens. These applicants have come to view themselves as commodities. So poor thing one. Many have become dehumanized during this process. And the govt has succeeded.

I understand they are responsible for the country's economy and many policies were put in place for this reason but still..........

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Re: Everyone I know is leaving or already left

Postby Brah » Tue, 05 Apr 2016 11:53 am

JR8 wrote:
x9200 wrote:The "FT" thing... I have mixed feelings about it. Personally I see it slightly negative but not in the superiority context. It just sounds childish or propaganda to call somebody this way and having foreigner talents does not imply lack of local talents in some other areas. The acronym also carries a different load. While I would never say to anybody "foreign talent" except of being sarcastic, I may say F-T.


Agreed. It is like trying to put them on something of a pedestal to politically justify their presence. But at the same time inadvertently opening them up as a broad and easy target.

It also has a weird (to me) sub-text or connotations. Like calling a stripper a 'performing artiste'. What expat in SG would consider never mind refer to themselves as a 'talent', unless as suggested taking the p*** out of the silliness of the term.


Agree with both, and here the language sort of fails us, in a place where it often fails, or stymies them (an earlier rant on mangled idioms which I never completed).

"Expat" probably works better in other countries but here I never use it to describe myself because it gives many local listeners an image of colonial-era paid-everything and sets up an envy-despise intrigue barrier, which couldn't be further from the truth.
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Re: Everyone I know is leaving or already left

Postby JR8 » Tue, 05 Apr 2016 4:00 pm

Brah wrote:"Expat" probably works better in other countries but here I never use it to describe myself because it gives many local listeners an image of colonial-era paid-everything and sets up an envy-despise intrigue barrier, which couldn't be further from the truth.


Well of course expat is a derivation from expatriated, ie simply, outside your own country. But agreed it has some kind of higher-end connotations. Whereas in previous years one might have been less concerned what the locals thought about how you described yourself ... these days the x-hairs seem to hover ever closer.

'Envy-despise intrigue barrier' :lol: ....
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