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Everyone I know is leaving or already left

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JR8
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Re: Everyone I know is leaving or already left

Postby JR8 » Sun, 03 Apr 2016 8:48 pm

earthfriendly wrote:Hard to turn back the clock after you have taken the red pill (Matrix - another reference from that SG FB).


Which derives from Plato*, The Allegory of the Cave
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_Cave
--------------
'Plato has Socrates describe a gathering of people who have lived chained to the wall of a cave all of their lives, facing a blank wall. The people watch shadows projected on the wall from things passing in front of a fire behind them, and they begin to give names to these shadows. The shadows are as close as the prisoners get to viewing reality. He then explains how the philosopher is like a prisoner who is freed from the cave and comes to understand that the shadows on the wall do not make up reality at all, for he can perceive the true form of reality rather than the mere shadows seen by the prisoners.
...Socrates suggests that the shadows constitute reality for the prisoners because they have never seen anything else; they do not realize that what they see are shadows of objects in front of a fire, much less that these objects are inspired by real living things outside the cave.


This is presumably where those who use the 'Red Pill analogy' see parallels with SGn '''quitters'''...>

'Plato then supposes that one prisoner is freed, being forced to turn and see the fire. The light would hurt his eyes and make it hard for him to see the objects that are casting the shadows. If he is told that what he saw before was not real but instead that the objects he is now struggling to see are, he would not believe it. In his pain, Plato continues, the freed prisoner would turn away and run back to what he can see and is accustomed to, that is the shadows of the carried objects. He writes "...it would hurt his eyes, and he would escape by turning away to the things which he was able to look at, and these he would believe to be clearer than what was being shown to him." [2]

Plato continues: "suppose...that someone should drag him...by force, up the rough ascent, the steep way up, and never stop until he could drag him out into the light of the sun." [2] The prisoner would be angry and in pain, and this would only worsen when the radiant light of the sun overwhelms his eyes and blinds him.[2] The sunlight is representative of the new reality and knowledge that the freed prisoner is experiencing.

Slowly, his eyes adjust to the light of the sun. First he can only see shadows. Gradually he can see the reflections of people and things in water and then later see the people and things themselves. Eventually he is able to look at the stars and moon at night until finally he can look upon the sun itself (516a).[2] Only after he can look straight at the sun "is he able to reason about it" and what it is.


Why '''quitters''' must be mocked and belittled; the possibility of suddenly having choices is intimidating to those who have not had to make them before...


...Return to the cave
Plato continues, saying that the freed prisoner would think that the real world was superior to the world he experienced in the cave; "he would bless himself for the change, and pity [the other prisoners]" and would want to bring his fellow cave dwellers out of the cave and into the sunlight (516c).[2]

The returning prisoner, whose eyes have become acclimated to the light of the sun, would be blind when he re-enters the cave, just as he was when he was first exposed to the sun (516e).[2] The prisoners, according to Socrates, would infer from the returning man's blindness that the journey out of the cave had harmed him and that they should not undertake a similar journey. Socrates concludes that the prisoners, if they were able, would therefore reach out and kill anyone who attempted to drag them out of the cave


So, SG as a version of 'The Matrix'. I hadn't thought of it in that way before...
'Do it or do not do it: You will regret both' - Kierkegaard

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Re: Everyone I know is leaving or already left

Postby earthfriendly » Sun, 03 Apr 2016 10:52 pm

LOL JR8, can always count on you to provide a fresh perspective. I was referring specifically to that FB group, perhaps it is run as a platform for dissenting Singaporeans. I have no idea what I was walking into :mrgreen: .

And not every Singaporeans can handle the culture shock of overseas stint. I have a cousin who attended a college in USA, for only three months. She could not handle it and needed to be back in her SG patch, close to her family. That was over three decades ago. I would imagine life was a lot harder for an Asian to live in the USA at that time. Another Singaporean that I know. Who was in Texas with her husband due to his job. They had to return to SG as she would not have it there. She was constantly on the edge, that she is the subject of rascism. That or she would become a victim of a crime. That she would get shot or robbed. Despite constant assurance from her hubby who also pointed out to her she was overly paranoid. Needless to say, it is best that she goes back to SG. For the sake of her sanity. Very nice, mild and amicable lady. But not cut out for a life in Texas.

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Re: Everyone I know is leaving or already left

Postby earthfriendly » Mon, 04 Apr 2016 12:09 am

And quite a few of my cousins are back and living in SG. After their overseas college stint.

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Re: Everyone I know is leaving or already left

Postby JR8 » Mon, 04 Apr 2016 1:49 am

Lol w/EF. I Wiki'd on The Matrix to remind myself of the significance of the red vs blue pills. I have the DVD and watched it a few times, but not really looked for a deeper level. Thinking in retrospect, there was always likely to be a deeper meaning to it that I'd missed. And there on Wiki was the ref to Plato's Republic, one of the very few ancient philosophy books I just happen to own... [I think I bought it when I was trying to impress a philosophy student at uni that I had designs on ;)]. Re-reading the summary of it's final chapter (as linked) I can understand why some others might perhaps see some parallels in it vs SGn culture. [And to be clear I know the thoughts you refer to are those of others out on the web and not your own].

re: your personal anecdote: I too have known a couple of SGns who have expated but not been able to cope. One very sadly had a nervous breakdown, not exaggerating, in the literal/diagnosed sense, and had to return home. The other was a trailing SGn spouse who decided winter wasn't going to work for her and packed up and returned home leaving her husband behind.
I also know a few SGns who have left and thrived. They were perhaps already mold-breakers before they left. You could say their thinking and horizons demanded far more space to grow than was available, and there is nil chance either would go back.
'Do it or do not do it: You will regret both' - Kierkegaard

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Re: Everyone I know is leaving or already left

Postby Brah » Mon, 04 Apr 2016 8:25 am

It could very well be that the lesser patronization of places mentioned by RATM and x9200 is a simple combination of old places falling out of favor and an overabundance of new places to go with a limited demographic. Tourists visit a limited number of these places in favor of the more famous ones. BQ on a Sunday is bound to be less crowded and the crowds there probably fluctuate. I think the Saturday crowd is more telling.

But it has been quiet the past few weeks, I think in part due to the long holiday weekend and school timings, but I could be wrong there.

And can we stop using that locally-fabricated and unfortunate term "FT"? In any other country these people are referred to as "foreigners".

The "T" in "FT" is what locals use to get themselves into a Us-and_them furor when the situation suits their needs or not go the way they want.

It assumes and perpetuates superiority and a superiority complex, and as a foreigner that does not define me.


To WD40s point about a potential fall in EPs, unless some industry is ramping up where banking is ramping down, and I don't think there there is, it is academic that the numbers will fall and we might see more Lamborghinis in condo parking lots soon as no one will be living in their condos but themselves.
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Re: Everyone I know is leaving or already left

Postby x9200 » Mon, 04 Apr 2016 9:04 am

The "FT" thing... I have mixed feelings about it. Personally I see it slightly negative but not in the superiority context. It just sounds childish or propaganda to call somebody this way and having foreigner talents does not imply lack of local talents in some other areas. The acronym also carries a different load. While I would never say to anybody "foreign talent" except of being sarcastic, I may say F-T.

Specifically for that 2004 vs now discussion FT precisely defines a group of foreigners, better earning but more volatile in terms of residency. The term foreigners is just too broad in this case.

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Re: Everyone I know is leaving or already left

Postby Wd40 » Mon, 04 Apr 2016 12:00 pm

In the West, the word immigrants is used.

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Re: Everyone I know is leaving or already left

Postby x9200 » Mon, 04 Apr 2016 12:24 pm

Wd40 wrote:In the West, the word immigrants is used.

Not really. Immigrants strongly imply the intention of more permanent settlement.

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Re: Everyone I know is leaving or already left

Postby Barnsley » Mon, 04 Apr 2016 12:30 pm

rajagainstthemachine wrote:
x9200 wrote:
rajagainstthemachine wrote:Haven't you noticed many restaurants have started to close by 10pm, 9:30 is usually last order.
Many malls in orchard etc have declining audiences. I don't see the crowds I used to see in many of the usual hangouts. Chijmes, CQ, bq. Have you seen bq on a Sunday night? I understand nobody wants to drink on a Sunday night but this wasn't the case many moons ago.

Nope, I don't see any of those, perhaps because I am not a frequent visitor of restaurants and such recently, but frankly, I would be surprised if your observations (or reasoning) are correct. Think about it in the population numbers, how many people would need to disappear to see such impact. CQ, Chijmes etc. don't have their crowd made of FT alone. There are tourists and there are locals too and how many of the FT frequenting the place could have moved out of the country? More than 30%? I doubt. And with 30% I don't think you would notice the difference unless you are talking only about places that cater for FT.


we decided to go to BQ on a Sunday at 8:30 pm for some food. the street behind it houses several eating places normally catering for all audiences. you would normally think such places would be open at this time of the day, but a large majority of them were shut.
Several places in Orchard same.. I can more or less places where I've been frequently going to and I don't see the same crowds anymore. Maybe they all flocked off to another part of Singapore where I don't go. :mrgreen:


A lot of Circular Road is closed on Sundays anyway , the CBD area is like a ghost town on Sundays as most of the bars and restaurants are closed.

Boat Quay is open , but unless there is a big sporting event on, it is dead on Sundays.

Orchard Road , the only places with anyone in them are the eating places , the clothing and other types of shops barely have anyone in them.

Everyones favourite OT , is very empty these days , a few bars have closed , that maybe due to the Oil and Gas boys moving out though.
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Re: Everyone I know is leaving or already left

Postby the lynx » Mon, 04 Apr 2016 1:30 pm

Brah wrote:And can we stop using that locally-fabricated and unfortunate term "FT"? In any other country these people are referred to as "foreigners".

The "T" in "FT" is what locals use to get themselves into a Us-and_them furor when the situation suits their needs or not go the way they want.

It assumes and perpetuates superiority and a superiority complex, and as a foreigner that does not define me.


Well the local demographics here have the penchant for acronyms. PIE, JC, PAP, FT, PRC, etc...

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Re: Everyone I know is leaving or already left

Postby Addadude » Mon, 04 Apr 2016 1:46 pm

I certainly know of a few Singaporeans who have ventured overseas only to return with their tail firmly between their legs.

Mind you, there have been no shortage of expats who couldn't hack it here either. Or the place 'got to them'. (Quite a few have passed through this message board...)

Then I have friends and relatives back home in Ireland who tried to live abroad and got desperately homesick and had to return.

And of course we have the expats who have come here, returned home at the end of their stint and then either experienced severe reverse culture shock or desperately missed their beloved 'expat status' with all its bells and whistles.

The way I look at is, if you try something or some place different and it doesn't work out for you personally, so what? At least you tried. Which is a great deal more than most people ever do.
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Re: Everyone I know is leaving or already left

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Mon, 04 Apr 2016 1:55 pm

It's also good that you have finally let your inner self partially come out of the closet. All this time I thought you were mental, not metal. ;-)

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Re: Everyone I know is leaving or already left

Postby JR8 » Mon, 04 Apr 2016 2:48 pm

x9200 wrote:
Wd40 wrote:In the West, the word immigrants is used.

Not really. Immigrants strongly imply the intention of more permanent settlement.


Agreed. And if taken in the EU context the assumption would be people fleeing war and/or economic migrants. I.e. skills or intention to work doesn't come into it.
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Re: RE: Re: Everyone I know is leaving or already left

Postby Wd40 » Mon, 04 Apr 2016 4:21 pm

JR8 wrote:
x9200 wrote:
Wd40 wrote:In the West, the word immigrants is used.

Not really. Immigrants strongly imply the intention of more permanent settlement.


Agreed. And if taken in the EU context the assumption would be people fleeing war and/or economic migrants. I.e. skills or intention to work doesn't come into it.

Well, talking about UK in particular, from the news I have read and from hearing people talk, I have seen the word immigrant used for foreigners who are there on work permit as well. Basically anyone who is "living" in UK and non UK national is an immigrant in my opinion.

Have a read through this news and note how foreigners and immigrants are used interchangeably.

http://www.theguardian.com/media/realit ... rs-britain

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Re: Everyone I know is leaving or already left

Postby rajagainstthemachine » Mon, 04 Apr 2016 4:55 pm

wouldn't the term economic migrant be the best term to describe an FT ?
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