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Probation definition

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ecureilx
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Probation definition

Postby ecureilx » Sat, 12 Dec 2015 11:00 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:Squirrel, that's all fine, well and good, if an employer wants to do that and the employees accept it. However, it still doesn't mean, if taken to task, that it would/could be upheld in the court if it is not spelled out in the contract, the provision for early ending of probation. I grant you, the premise you are driving at is normal, but it's because it can be also used against an employee that it would, I believe, be thrown out in a courtroom because the provision for early completion is not written in the contract. Once it came out that the employee had an offer, which the employer may well have found out in a small country like Singapore, it could have prompted him to confirm early so the employee could not leave with only 2 weeks notice and that probably would cause the new employer to withdraw his offer if he has to wait 3 months. Sorry, but I think you might be on the short end of the stick this time.

Additionally, you don't seem to be able to make up your mind (or keep your 'stories' straight as the case may be.....)

viewtopic.php?p=499776#p499776

Something about hoists & petards comes to mind..... :-k


That link was something that suggested a fraud by employer by Backdating a confirmation. If I recall correctly.

Going by your logic the employers who give early confirmation are in serious breach of the law ?

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Re: RE: Re: Probation definition

Postby ecureilx » Sat, 12 Dec 2015 11:05 pm

JR8 wrote:I never encountered anything as long a 6mos probation back in my day, and I don't think it is a very respectful or mutually conducive (for the longer-term) way to bring new staff onto a team.


All my life I never worked on contract jobs, and only permanent ones, and I see in wrong, personally, for a guy to be on 6 months probation for a 12 months job. I hope not to be in that boat, wondering if I will be confirmed, for the first 6 months and then start worrying about finding another, during the next six months.

And the average probation I faced all the while was 3 months and if not confirmed in 3 months, that was a sign to start looking for a new job.

But apologies in advance to you and x9200 if that's how contract jobs work now.

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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Probation definition

Postby ecureilx » Sat, 12 Dec 2015 11:10 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:, be thrown out in a courtroom ...


Again, legally you may be right but I can't recall many cases where the employee won any unfair hiring or firing case with enough compensation to have warranted the fight.

That doesn't make any possible wrongdoing correct, by the way.

It's a case of operation success, patient dead.

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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Probation definition

Postby ecureilx » Sat, 12 Dec 2015 11:14 pm

x9200 wrote:You just repeated your claim, added irrelevant stuff and as usual you can not prove anything. Is it again from your sister's husband's friend who once was sitting in a park next to rubbish bin containing a coffee cup used 3 months later by a part time cleaner of a lawyer?

This reminds me that I am still waiting for you to prove another BS you claimed last time. Are you already back from your holiday?

At least could you please learn how to quote the text?


My sister's husband has nothing to do with Singapore employment practices ....

And I doubt the coffee cup committed any crime.

And I wish tapatalk allowed ease of quoting.

What proof are you looking for ? Refresh my memory. About The Lemon Law ?

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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Probation definition

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sat, 12 Dec 2015 11:45 pm

ecureilx wrote:That link was something that suggested a fraud by employer by Backdating a confirmation. If I recall correctly.

Going by your logic the employers who give early confirmation are in serious breach of the law ?


Still boils down to the same thing, doesn't it. You are twisting and squirming. Backing dating the confirmation or trying to confirm early means exactly the same thing AND was for a similar example of trying to shaft the employee, so don't say these things don't exist. Here's two right in your face.

We are not :"going by my logic". But yes, the employers, if it's being done without agreement with the employee, because the employer is trying to screw the employee, it would be in serious breach of the law. Full Stop.

Here's another for you, incidental, but it happens. An employee resigns. Gives one month's notice and doesn't come to work the last 12 days. Salary in lieu of notice? You would think so. But no, he sent a text message to his field manager who neglected to let HR know about it. comes in the last day and flops 8 days worth of MC's and 3 days of "urgent leave" which wasn't approved as it wasn't submitted timely. The MC's were not turned in within 24 hours of their return to work (he never returned). I just came out of an MOM court on Wednesday where we had to give him his salary in lieu of notice. It was still unpaid leave, but the penalty position couldn't be envoked because he sms'd the field mgr (who subsequently was read the riot act).

You see, yes it's the law, but MOM will always err in favor of the employee in a lopsided contract, especially if it looks like it was being done to thwart the employee. Get used to it.

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Re: Probation definition

Postby Wd40 » Sun, 13 Dec 2015 12:39 am


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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Probation definition

Postby x9200 » Sun, 13 Dec 2015 3:51 am

ecureilx wrote:
x9200 wrote:You just repeated your claim, added irrelevant stuff and as usual you can not prove anything. Is it again from your sister's husband's friend who once was sitting in a park next to rubbish bin containing a coffee cup used 3 months later by a part time cleaner of a lawyer?

This reminds me that I am still waiting for you to prove another BS you claimed last time. Are you already back from your holiday?

At least could you please learn how to quote the text?


My sister's husband has nothing to do with Singapore employment practices

No, probably not in this case. I think it is similar to what I used to experience with my parents. Somebody told them something once and they accepted it as a fact. Later, in a similar situation they already "knew" and took no action based on this knowledge. It happened again and again and they got reassured. But the fact is, they never verified it by any more reliable source or a legal action. You know what I mean?
You make very categorical statements. One day, somebody may search this thread and find it and take it as a fact while it is at best your opinion. That's why I am a bit after you.

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Re: RE: Re: Probation definition

Postby x9200 » Sun, 13 Dec 2015 4:10 am

ecureilx wrote:
JR8 wrote:I never encountered anything as long a 6mos probation back in my day, and I don't think it is a very respectful or mutually conducive (for the longer-term) way to bring new staff onto a team.


All my life I never worked on contract jobs, and only permanent ones, and I see in wrong, personally, for a guy to be on 6 months probation for a 12 months job. I hope not to be in that boat, wondering if I will be confirmed, for the first 6 months and then start worrying about finding another, during the next six months.

And the average probation I faced all the while was 3 months and if not confirmed in 3 months, that was a sign to start looking for a new job.

But apologies in advance to you and x9200 if that's how contract jobs work now.

We have or used to have 12month probation periods for 2-3y long contracts but the status was not linked, I believe, to any benefits. Also, I have never got any confirmation letter. Whether this is fair or not fair, hard to say. I see it similar to any contract renewal, for a job but also for housing - you never know for sure what may happen and have to manage somehow the situation anyway. Last time I had a permanent job was 15y ago. It's not that comfortable to be on the contract, but I guess it also makes you less complacent and more vigilant, good for you and the employer in a longer term.

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Re: Probation definition

Postby x9200 » Sun, 13 Dec 2015 4:26 am


So by the contract wording it does not give the employer even right to shorten the probation period. While it is often assumed the probation is only to protect the employer it is obviously for mutual benefits, otherwise the employee would have (e.g.) a longer notice period.
See, there should be no problem to include just one, single statement that the probation period is also over upon receiving the confirmation letter yet it is not there. IMHO it has to be there if such letter was to be effective in the absence of general regulations (i.e. the Employment Act) defining it.

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Re: Probation definition

Postby JR8 » Sun, 13 Dec 2015 5:44 pm

Yep, agreed. On those terms, there is nothing to suggest you're beyond the probation period at this point of time. Nothing about the possibility of probation ending early either.

Either probation is extended (in writing), or at the end of the original period probation is deemed to have expired, and you're employed. Neither has happened.

A passing comment from someone during your probationary period that 'you're hired' has no contractual weight IMO; more a throw-away thought or presumption that you will be hired, than have been hired.

Think of it the reverse way. How easy would it be for your manager to deny you are in fact hired; what would he say? I think that would be a very simple argument for him to make. Far stronger than you arguing 'But you said I was'.


--- p.s. all in my non-legal expert opinion of course...
'Do it or do not do it: You will regret both' - Kierkegaard

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Re: Probation definition

Postby Wd40 » Sun, 13 Dec 2015 6:23 pm

Thanks everybody. So legally I should be able to resign and give 2 weeks notice, if I get the offer before my 6 month completion. The other thing is the company withholding my salary to pay off my taxes. But since notice is 2 weeks and salary in my company is given like 24th of every month, I don't think they will be able to withhold it. So I will have to pay it off myself, which is not a problem for me.

Now the real question for me is whether I should quit or not. After joining this company the last 5 months my confidence has taken a real beating. I will need to evaluate whether I should stay on and keep struggling here or should I take the risk and jump. Both seem risky.

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Re: Probation definition

Postby Wd40 » Tue, 15 Dec 2015 8:19 pm

Today was the last straw on the camel's back. I have spoken to my manager and told him my intention to resign. Still haven't got the offer, but I don't care anymore. Open to go back to India. I need a break!

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Re: Probation definition

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Tue, 15 Dec 2015 10:25 pm

What is interesting is that the company is trying to cover their arses in as much as the contract that they gave you is in violation of IRAS rules. They are required by IRAS to give ONE MONTH of Notice as they have to file Tax Clearance for you 30 days before you final day of work. In theory they could be fined $1000 for every instance of that. In practice, however, I find it's rarely done, but the law IS there. It used to be adhered to prior to the 2011 elections but I guess in the interest of reducing FT headcounts, they've relaxed that a bit. In fact, they have added another reason for short notice in the dropdown list. "no Quota" :-)

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Re: Probation definition

Postby Wd40 » Sat, 02 Jan 2016 1:24 pm

Hello guys, just to update, the new offer came through. Resigned with 2 weeks notice and new EP approved in 3 days. So all set to jump. This will be my 4th Job in SG. All the jumps have been due to circumstances and not for higher salary. I hope this job is my last one in SG and I settledown here for atleast couple of years. I dont want to jump here anymore rather go back to India, if this doesnt work out.

I will update how the tax clearance goes. HR will use my leave encashment for paying off some of the taxes, but its not going to be enough. Either I will have to pay them or to the IRAS directly.

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Re: Probation definition

Postby x9200 » Sat, 02 Jan 2016 3:26 pm

Congrats on your new job and good luck!
3 days. Weird, looks like love and hate relationship both the Singapore and you (likely the race vs qualifications). Are you going to apply once again for PR?


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