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Probation definition

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Wd40
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Probation definition

Postby Wd40 » Sat, 12 Dec 2015 3:17 pm

Hello guys,

Again I am in a tricky job related situation. I hate my current job and want to get out of here. My contract says 2 weeks notice period during probation and 3 months after probation. It also states probation is 6 months.

Now I am in my 6th month in my company but not finished 6 months yet and so my notice period should be 2 weeks isn't it? I am attending a job interview and the new company is aware of my situation and they are trying to offer me before the 6 months completes so that I can give a 2 weeks notice and join the new company.

However my manager just verbally told me that my job is confirmed.

Now my question about is can my current company confirm my job i.e. end my probation prior to the completion of 6 months and hence demand 3 months notice?

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Re: RE: Probation definition

Postby ecureilx » Sat, 12 Dec 2015 5:27 pm

Wd40 wrote:Hello guys,

Again I am in a tricky job related situation. I hate my current job and want to get out of here. My contract says 2 weeks notice period during probation and 3 months after probation. It also states probation is 6 months.

Now I am in my 6th month in my company but not finished 6 months yet and so my notice period should be 2 weeks isn't it? I am attending a job interview and the new company is aware of my situation and they are trying to offer me before the 6 months completes so that I can give a 2 weeks notice and join the new company.

However my manager just verbally told me that my job is confirmed.

Now my question about is can my current company confirm my job i.e. end my probation prior to the completion of 6 months and hence demand 3 months notice?


Unless you got the confirmation in writing, you are still under probation.

So if you jump now and issue notice, it is the 2 weeks notice now.

Sit on it till next week, it may become 3 months once the confirmation letter has been given to you.

Unless your current contract states confirmation is automatic upon completion of 6 months of service.
Last edited by ecureilx on Sat, 12 Dec 2015 5:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: RE: Re: RE: Probation definition

Postby Wd40 » Sat, 12 Dec 2015 5:36 pm

ecureilx wrote:
Wd40 wrote:Hello guys,

Again I am in a tricky job related situation. I hate my current job and want to get out of here. My contract says 2 weeks notice period during probation and 3 months after probation. It also states probation is 6 months.

Now I am in my 6th month in my company but not finished 6 months yet and so my notice period should be 2 weeks isn't it? I am attending a job interview and the new company is aware of my situation and they are trying to offer me before the 6 months completes so that I can give a 2 weeks notice and join the new company.

However my manager just verbally told me that my job is confirmed.

Now my question about is can my current company confirm my job i.e. end my probation prior to the completion of 6 months and hence demand 3 months notice?


Unless you got the confirmation in writing, you are still under probation.

So if you jump now and issue notice, it is the 2 weeks notice now.

Sit on it till next week, it may become 3 months once the confirmation letter has been given to you.

United you current contract states confirmation is automatic upon completion of 6 months of service.

Yes, contract says, if no communication is made until 6 months, then confirmation is automatic.

The thing is I still don't have the new offer letter. I also wonder if prior to the 6 months completion if they give me the letter of confirmation, its still effective only after 6 months rite, or can they confirm earlier.

Sent from my Redmi Note 2 using Tapatalk

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Re: Probation definition

Postby x9200 » Sat, 12 Dec 2015 5:48 pm

IMO, the probation period is defined. The notice period is defined dependant on that period, not on the confirmation. Besides, what the manager said was probably intended as information for you, that they are still going continue with you after the probation period, rather than to change your status from now on.

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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Probation definition

Postby ecureilx » Sat, 12 Dec 2015 5:52 pm

Wd40 wrote:Yes, contract says, if no communication is made until 6 months, then confirmation is automatic.

The thing is I still don't have the new offer letter. I also wonder if prior to the 6 months completion if they give me the letter of confirmation, its still effective only after 6 months rite, or can they confirm earlier.

Sent from my Redmi Note 2 using Tapatalk


If you got the letter before 6 months is up, you are confirmed, regardless you haven't completed the 6 months.

There are companies who confirm good employees in 1 or 2 months, though the contract states 3 or 6 months.

Tell your new employer if they don't give an offer letter tomorrow, your availability will be 3 months :)

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Re: Probation definition

Postby Wd40 » Sat, 12 Dec 2015 6:10 pm

Thanks guys, my view is also same as x9200. But there is some grey area left for interpretation like ecureilx has put it.

I am not 100% sure whether I should take the new job. My current job sucks. New job will probably be better in terms of it will be more organized and better timings. However it's a different technology that I need to learn and its different from what I have been doing. I am actually very surprised the interviewers liked me, because my skills are not exactly aligned and my skills are just too common. Singapore's job market continues to baffle me. When I need a job badly I don't get one for months. Then I get one which I am not really a perfect fit.

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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Probation definition

Postby x9200 » Sat, 12 Dec 2015 6:25 pm

ecureilx wrote:
Wd40 wrote:Yes, contract says, if no communication is made until 6 months, then confirmation is automatic.

The thing is I still don't have the new offer letter. I also wonder if prior to the 6 months completion if they give me the letter of confirmation, its still effective only after 6 months rite, or can they confirm earlier.

Sent from my Redmi Note 2 using Tapatalk


If you got the letter before 6 months is up, you are confirmed, regardless you haven't completed the 6 months.

BS IMHO unless this is stated in the contract. Please feel free to prove me wrong, I am happy to learn.

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Re: Probation definition

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sat, 12 Dec 2015 6:56 pm

If my reading of the Employment Act is correct, the person can only be confirmed 'earlier' than the terms of the contract IF both parties agree to it. There is nothing in the Act itself regarding early confirmation.

Confirmation of employment
Q: When is a worker deemed to be confirmed?
A: There is no provision in the Employment Act on the conditions for the confirmation of a worker in his job. A worker’s confirmation will depend on the terms spelt out in the employment contract. The length of a worker’s service is calculated from the date on which the worker starts work and not from the date of confirmation.


Therefore, if you contract does not make a provision for the early confirmation but states the duration of confirmation as 6 months, then both parties have to agree to it.

Having said that, I think a lawyer might be better placed to answer that question as WD40 probably earning more that what is under the purview of the EA. therefore, while I think normal contract law would apply I cannot be 100% positive on this.

As an example, our contracts have a 3 month's probation and unless notified in writing, it is automatic confirmation with no letter needed, but it does need to be in writing if we want to extend the probation for a longer period. I think MOM would find in the favour of the employee in your case as you cannot give less to the employee than the employer and having the ability to confirm someone early, in order to prevent them from leaving to take up another position without a lengthy wait, would run foul of the spirit of the act itself.

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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Probation definition

Postby ecureilx » Sat, 12 Dec 2015 7:17 pm

x9200 wrote:BS IMHO unless this is stated in the contract. Please feel free to prove me wrong, I am happy to learn.


I know enough places where confirmation is given before the probation period is up. So in those cases, the employee is still under probation though the letter says he is confirmed, eligible for additional benefits and leave etc ?

A lot of companies extend medical, dental , training fee etc only to confirmed staff. And the new notice period , And its perfectly legal.

Unless the places you know like to hold the employee on the edge till the last day of probation, as probation = uncertainty.
Last edited by ecureilx on Sat, 12 Dec 2015 7:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Probation definition

Postby x9200 » Sat, 12 Dec 2015 7:18 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:... you cannot give less to the employee than the employer and having the ability to confirm someone early, in order to prevent them from leaving to take up another position without a lengthy wait, would run foul of the spirit of the act itself.

This is exactly why I think it is a BS. This would simply void the validity of the shorter term notice.

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Re: RE: Re: Probation definition

Postby ecureilx » Sat, 12 Dec 2015 7:23 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:If my reading of the Employment Act is correct, the person can only be confirmed 'earlier' than the terms of the contract IF both parties agree to it. There is nothing in the Act itself regarding early confirmation.


There was never any place for agreement. Or dotted line to sign. A letter, and new benefits for confirmation and a gift and sometimes a free movie ticket or so... and internal email stating so and so is a confirmed staff

Not forgetting a pay rise upon confirmation which can be a fixed amount if negotiated in advance, or a token sum, as was the case with one employer, between 200 to 500$.

And that includes companies with head count in 4 figures. All of them were perm jobs, not contract, but I doubt any difference for contract jobs.

And who wouldn't want to be confirmed and get more benefits, when the company wants to confirm you ? Logically it sets alarm bells, if an employee refused confirmation, and refuses additional training etc etc open to confirmed staff, as the terms may also include termination of employment if not confirmed within a certain time period.
Last edited by ecureilx on Sat, 12 Dec 2015 7:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: RE: Re: Probation definition

Postby ecureilx » Sat, 12 Dec 2015 7:28 pm

x9200 wrote:
sundaymorningstaple wrote:... you cannot give less to the employee than the employer and having the ability to confirm someone early, in order to prevent them from leaving to take up another position without a lengthy wait, would run foul of the spirit of the act itself.

This is exactly why I think it is a BS. This would simply void the validity of the shorter term notice.

Let me put it this way. Technically you are correct. But in practice, quite a few companies here confirm good and important staff earlier, than see them go.

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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Probation definition

Postby x9200 » Sat, 12 Dec 2015 7:30 pm

ecureilx wrote:
x9200 wrote:If you got the letter before 6 months is up, you are confirmed, regardless you haven't completed the 6 months.

BS IMHO unless this is stated in the contract. Please feel free to prove me wrong, I am happy to learn.


I know enough places where confirmation is given before the probation period is up. So in those cases, the employee is still under probation though the letter says he is confirmed, eligible for additional benefits and leave etc ?

A lot of companies extend medical, dental , training fee etc only to confirmed staff. And the new notice period , And its perfectly legal.
**************************************
You just repeated your claim, added irrelevant stuff and as usual you can not prove anything. Is it again from your sister's husband's friend who once was sitting in a park next to rubbish bin containing a coffee cup used 3 months later by a part time cleaner of a lawyer?

This reminds me that I am still waiting for you to prove another BS you claimed last time. Are you already back from your holiday?

At least could you please learn how to quote the text?

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Re: RE: Re: Probation definition

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sat, 12 Dec 2015 7:43 pm

ecureilx wrote:
sundaymorningstaple wrote:If my reading of the Employment Act is correct, the person can only be confirmed 'earlier' than the terms of the contract IF both parties agree to it. There is nothing in the Act itself regarding early confirmation.


There was never any place for agreement. Or dotted line to sign. A letter, and new benefits for confirmation and a gift and sometimes a free movie ticket or so... and internal email stating so and so is a confirmed staff

Not forgetting a pay rise upon confirmation which can be a fixed amount if negotiated in advance, or a token sum, as was the case with one employer, between 200 to 500$.

And that includes companies with head count in 4 figures. All of them were perm jobs, not contract, but I doubt any difference for contract jobs.

And who wouldn't want to be confirmed and get more benefits, when the company wants to confirm you ? Logically it sets alarm bells, if an employee refused confirmation, and refuses additional training etc etc open to confirmed staff, as the terms may also include termination of employment if not confirmed within a certain time period.


Squirrel, that's all fine, well and good, if an employer wants to do that and the employees accept it. However, it still doesn't mean, if taken to task, that it would/could be upheld in the court if it is not spelled out in the contract, the provision for early ending of probation. I grant you, the premise you are driving at is normal, but it's because it can be also used against an employee that it would, I believe, be thrown out in a courtroom because the provision for early completion is not written in the contract. Once it came out that the employee had an offer, which the employer may well have found out in a small country like Singapore, it could have prompted him to confirm early so the employee could not leave with only 2 weeks notice and that probably would cause the new employer to withdraw his offer if he has to wait 3 months. Sorry, but I think you might be on the short end of the stick this time.

Additionally, you don't seem to be able to make up your mind (or keep your 'stories' straight as the case may be.....)

viewtopic.php?p=499776#p499776

Something about hoists & petards comes to mind..... :-k

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Re: Probation definition

Postby JR8 » Sat, 12 Dec 2015 10:38 pm

I agree with Ecu. Probationary periods work both ways, and if they didn't want you enough right now I don't doubt they'd give you notice, or seek to extend your probation. The flipside is you have similar rights to conclude it's not a good fit, and so to [effectively] walk away.
I never encountered anything as long a 6mos probation back in my day, and I don't think it is a very respectful or mutually conducive (for the longer-term) way to bring new staff onto a team.

Wd40 wrote: However my manager just verbally told me that my job is confirmed.
Now my question about is can my current company confirm my job i.e. end my probation prior to the completion of 6 months and hence demand 3 months notice?


No way. And what a convenient suggestion for him to throw out there. If it's not in writing IMO you have to assume it's not confirmed. Something as serious as this cannot hinge on 'someone says'.

Pt.2 of your question. I'd have thought the probationary period would have to be mutual/each-way? Perhaps SMS would have some knowledge on this question. I don't see how you can hire a person, on something like a provisional/conditional contract, and then summarily change the terms of that contract before it has run it's course. I.e. I'd expect any such possibility to be something that would have to mutually agreed, and not a unilateral right for just the employer.

p.s. Oops I wrote that prior to seeing SMSs post ^
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