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Re: RE: Re: Singapore restricts its citizens of Indian origin from attending Modi's event

Postby TMD » Sun, 08 Nov 2015 5:47 am

rajagainstthemachine wrote:
TMD wrote:Is true about India's today ? That growing intolerance between different caste, sects, communities and belief ? Just to be clear, are you saying Modi' "disciples" are one of those responsible for today's intolerance ?

Reason I ask is the last time I read about Indian and its tolerance, it seems that the system under Modi has gone from bad to worst with the growing institutionalization of religious belief in a supposed democratic nation. (beef, cow, not counting the past record of Modi that led to ban from US)
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/f ... -tolerance

Now, if I am to take account of the online publicity campaign Modi's team has been wagging in the West and now in Singapore (http://namoinsingapore.org/aboutNamo.php) and compared to what is really going on in India today, which one should I believe ?
Anyone ?

(PS: Thanks for trying your bait with the SCS dispute) :wink:


The trouble is his party the BJP and all the sister organizations under it like the Vishwa Hindu Parishad, the Bajrang Dal, the ABVP, the Shiv Sena, RSS among others are all mostly radical right wing parties with a highly polarized upper caste hindu agenda.
Their primary agenda is to create a country where non hindus live in fear and oppression and want to put them in their places.
Many of these outfits are made of goons largely young unemployed males who go around provoking,intimidating non hindu people, admonishing youngsters for public show of affection, ruining things like valentine's day, storming events that they think doesn't align with their interpretation of hindu culture.
Now Modi himself while he's trying to project himself as messiah he can't really do anything about what these outfits are doing as they all have the blessings of the ruling party, the BJP.


Thanks for sharing Raj.

It is indeed worrying as an outsider to see and hear the path India is heading domestically in recent years.
Internationally, India gives the general impression that it retains the DNA of a civilisation that welcomes and encourages diversity and avoid dogmatism. Yet, it is also arguable that Modi himself is in someway part of the problem considering his past records involving extremist and supremacist groups.

Anyone recalled RSS and VHP's Ekta pilgrimage in the 1990s ?

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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Singapore restricts its citizens of Indian origin from attending Modi's event

Postby ecureilx » Sun, 08 Nov 2015 2:52 pm

TMD wrote:"anti-Modi" media hype? Do u consider CNN as one of them ?


You seem to be on to something....

The writer is of Indian Descent and. .. its an opinion piece, and .... CNN and neutrality ?

Give me a break.

No comments.

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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Singapore restricts its citizens of Indian origin from attending Modi's event

Postby TMD » Mon, 09 Nov 2015 2:39 pm

ecureilx wrote:
TMD wrote:"anti-Modi" media hype? Do u consider CNN as one of them ?

You seem to be on to something....
The writer is of Indian Descent and. .. its an opinion piece, and .... CNN and neutrality ?
Give me a break. No comments.


That is why I seek your comment about CNN‘s "neutrality".
Granted the Network's questionable agenda, but you cannot ignore what has been pointed out by writer.

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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Singapore restricts its citizens of Indian origin from attending Modi's event

Postby ecureilx » Mon, 09 Nov 2015 5:31 pm

TMD wrote:That is why I seek your comment about CNN‘s "neutrality".
Granted the Network's questionable agenda, but you cannot ignore what has been pointed out by writer.


Preaching Ghandian ways to folks who accuse Ghandi of having sold India to Muslim .. it's great.

And, try and recall who killed Ghandi.

Ignore what ? This complication has been there since independence and it's nothing new. And its not gonna go away.

A lot in the west want Congress and their supposedly pacifist policies back so they can manipulate a lot of Indian policies under the pretext of protecting religious freedom. Though their hidden agenda is open for discussion.

But they also pretend to love Modi too as his defense and other spending spree is sourcing a lot of stuff from USA vs the previous leaders. And They aren't gonna do anything to Modi at the moment.

And don't forget that Indian business houses are pretty much quietly in control of a large part of the world economy. They are not to be offended.

As for the calling India for Hindus, there were instances where Indian Muslims were alleged to have supported Pakistan when India and Pakistan were playing cricket. I use the word "allegedly..." and incidents like these do get fanned very quickly for inciting anger.

The issue of Hindus becoming a minority is a real possibility, not because of Muslims but also due to increasing conversion to Christianity. And most conversion don't happen by force but by choice.

Whereas see what happens to any Muslim who converts out, in Muslim countries. Fair deal I guess - you get hanged in Saudi for leaving Islam but you are protected if you convert to Islam in India.

It's a big mess, non Indians can't understand. And there's no simplification of the complicated issues facing India.

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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Singapore restricts its citizens of Indian origin from attending Modi's event

Postby TMD » Tue, 10 Nov 2015 10:35 pm

ecureilx wrote:
TMD wrote:That is why I seek your comment about CNN‘s "neutrality".
Granted the Network's questionable agenda, but you cannot ignore what has been pointed out by writer.

Preaching Ghandian ways to folks who accuse Ghandi of having sold India to Muslim .. it's great.
And, try and recall who killed Ghandi. Ignore what ? This complication has been there since independence and it's nothing new. And its not gonna go away.


True. India's own form of politics and system is laden with so much cultural and belief-based legacies that it is hard to imagine the current democratic process can override nor bypass whatever tension, barrier, ill-will ,mistrusts etc etc that had existed in this young country long before the Brit left.

It is as though India is still suffering from this crippling idiosyncrasy of wanting to be a proud and respected democratic nation while at the same time each community within are constantly fighting to be recognized for their "Indian-ness" based on their faith or belief system.

Which brings me back to your mentioning of Mahatma Gandhi (not "Ghandi") who's death is like a metaphor of the killing of what India could have been like.

A lot in the west want Congress and their supposedly pacifist policies back so they can manipulate a lot of Indian policies under the pretext of protecting religious freedom. Though their hidden agenda is open for discussion. But they also pretend to love Modi too as his defense and other spending spree is sourcing a lot of stuff from USA vs the previous leaders. And They aren't gonna do anything to Modi at the moment.


I assume the "west" means US ? I am not sure if any elected Indian government would want to be seen as having being "manipulated" by foreign powers considering her non-alliance policy and being a ex-colony. Defense wise, I don't see US-arms sales rocketing since Modi is into "Made in India" with some of the major arms deal with non-US contractors ( eg Rafale fighters)

And don't forget that Indian business houses are pretty much quietly in control of a large part of the world economy. They are not to be offended. As for the calling India for Hindus, there were instances where Indian Muslims were alleged to have supported Pakistan when India and Pakistan were playing cricket. I use the word "allegedly..." and incidents like these do get fanned very quickly for inciting anger. The issue of Hindus becoming a minority is a real possibility, not because of Muslims but also due to increasing conversion to Christianity. And most conversion don't happen by force but by choice.
Whereas see what happens to any Muslim who converts out, in Muslim countries. Fair deal I guess - you get hanged in Saudi for leaving Islam but you are protected if you convert to Islam in India.

Oh well, its back to religion again, be there a MSG-style Modi speech or not. As the saying goes, talk is cheap.

It's a big mess, non Indians can't understand. And there's no simplification of the complicated issues facing India.

hmm...I am not quite sure about that. If Indian (national) understand themselves well, no "complicated" issues should be unsolvable. Perhaps the answer is as simple accepting the beauty and simplicity behind any apparent complex issue.

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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Singapore restricts its citizens of Indian origin from attending Modi's event

Postby ecureilx » Tue, 10 Nov 2015 11:23 pm

TMD wrote:Which brings me back to your mentioning of Mahatma Gandhi (not "Ghandi") who's death is like a metaphor of the killing of what India could have been like.


How do you answer those who insist India would have been in a much better shape if freedom was won by violence and it's Gandhi who made post-Independence India Weak ? These folks insist that the non-violence and the submissive posture of Gandhi is what has lead to India becoming weak, though I can't exactly figure out how India is weak. To be honest.

TMD wrote:I assume the "west" means US ? I am not sure if any elected Indian government would want to be seen as having being "manipulated" by foreign powers considering her non-alliance policy and being a ex-colony. Defense wise, I don't see US-arms sales rocketing since Modi is into "Made in India" with some of the major arms deal with non-US contractors ( eg Rafale fighters)


Well, since Modi became PM, more C130s have been fast tracked, and now Apaches and Chinooks are in the pipeline. And overtly there are more deals being discussed, including more P8s.

And interestingly, I learnt that the US President's replacement helicopters are going to be built based on body structures fabricated in India, agreed it's done by a subsidiary of Tata.

On the other hand, the previous government bought a Navy Ship from US, with the following assurance :

United States obtained an assurance that the naval ship could not be used for any offensive purposes, and had the right to regularly inspect it, under an end-user monitoring agreement that India and the US signed in 2009.


hmm...I am not quite sure about that. If Indian (national) understand themselves well, no "complicated" issues should be unsolvable. Perhaps the answer is as simple accepting the beauty and simplicity behind any apparent complex issue.


If you can unravel India's complicated situation, you may be the best person to bring peace to Middle East !

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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Singapore restricts its citizens of Indian origin from attending Modi's event

Postby ecureilx » Wed, 11 Nov 2015 4:14 am

TMD wrote:..


A nice read, about how Bangladeshis are supposedly moving into India !

http://indiatogether.org/alang-op-ed

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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Singapore restricts its citizens of Indian origin from attending Modi's event

Postby TMD » Wed, 11 Nov 2015 2:53 pm

ecureilx wrote:How do you answer those who insist India would have been in a much better shape if freedom was won by violence and it's Gandhi who made post-Independence India Weak ? These folks insist that the non-violence and the submissive posture of Gandhi is what has lead to India becoming weak, though I can't exactly figure out how India is weak. To be honest.


IMHO, for an old man, who weaved his own cloth, to defeat one of the mightiest European empire in modern history without resort to violence represents the epitome of strength, not weakness.

Those "folks" which you mentioned will never get it. And sadly, it's not just through violence that these people receive all the attention and coverage in today's often noisy and chaotic Indian social politics. (read hindu nationalism and Modi's overseas "road shows").

Well, since Modi became PM, more C130s have been fast tracked, and now Apaches and Chinooks are in the pipeline. And overtly there are more deals being discussed, including more P8s.
And interestingly, I learnt that the US President's replacement helicopters are going to be built based on body structures fabricated in India, agreed it's done by a subsidiary of Tata.On the other hand, the previous government bought a Navy Ship from US, with the following assurance :
United States obtained an assurance that the naval ship could not be used for any offensive purposes, and had the right to regularly inspect it, under an end-user monitoring agreement that India and the US signed in 2009.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 142634.cms [/quote]

I don't get it - aside from making Boeing shareholders happy and warming up to US's friendship, how are 3 dozen helicopters and support planes going make any substantial impact to the security of one of the most populous nation ?

If you can unravel India's complicated situation, you may be the best person to bring peace to Middle East !


lol! goes without saying that the best people to resolve India's problems are the Indian themselves.
The last thing they (or anyone) should allow is to become another Middle East where the already messy status quote was further screwed up during the "Arab Spring" aided by players from outside the region.

Simply put: Say no to interference from non-regional foreign powers.

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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Singapore restricts its citizens of Indian origin from attending Modi's event

Postby ecureilx » Wed, 11 Nov 2015 11:30 pm

TMD wrote:I don't get it - aside from making Boeing shareholders happy and warming up to US's friendship, how are 3 dozen helicopters and support planes going make any substantial impact to the security of one of the most populous nation ?


If you know anybody who has any dealing with aircraft etc, they will tell you, a Chinook is like 100 times more reliable and able to take more punishment than their Russian Cousins.

And the Apache - well, it will make a big difference, vs India's current Russian Gear. Especially as India has learnt some invaluable and painful lessons in their brief forays in power projection.

That's another subject anyway.

Simply put: Say no to interference from non-regional foreign powers.


I hope you are not offended if I tell you, in this region, the regional players, including India, are already doing what the Foreign players did in Middle East / Arab Spring etc. If not of that scale, it is nearing that scale.

And India too has been busy on that score :> just google Nepal Fuel Blockade (in case you are not aware of it .. )

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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Singapore restricts its citizens of Indian origin from attending Modi's event

Postby TMD » Thu, 12 Nov 2015 12:58 pm

ecureilx wrote:
TMD wrote:I don't get it - aside from making Boeing shareholders happy and warming up to US's friendship, how are 3 dozen helicopters and support planes going make any substantial impact to the security of one of the most populous nation ?


If you know anybody who has any dealing with aircraft etc, they will tell you, a Chinook is like 100 times more reliable and able to take more punishment than their Russian Cousins.And the Apache - well, it will make a big difference, vs India's current Russian Gear. Especially as India has learnt some invaluable and painful lessons in their brief forays in power projection.
That's another subject anyway.


hmm..interesting that you mentioned about Russian gear reliability vs that of US.
I am not sure if that is fair considering India's own safety records from its Migs to their subs.
The Syrian gov forces might disagree based on some FSA video : :mrgreen:
Image



Simply put: Say no to interference from non-regional foreign powers.

I hope you are not offended if I tell you, in this region, the regional players, including India, are already doing what the Foreign players did in Middle East / Arab Spring etc. If not of that scale, it is nearing that scale. And India too has been busy on that score :> just google Nepal Fuel Blockade (in case you are not aware of it .. )[/quote]

Not at all ! - on the contrary I am enjoying this :)
At least we agree that foreign intervention and interference tend to work against the interest of regional parties as observed in the ME. As in the India trying to muscle her way around the South Asian sphere, yeah, I had heard and read about New Delhi's exploits. But hell...at least it is also in India and its neighbors interest not to overplay the game at the price of regional stability.

No one will gain, not India.

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Re: Singapore restricts its citizens of Indian origin from attending Modi's event

Postby PNGMK » Thu, 12 Nov 2015 7:13 pm

Image
I have gay, black, Asian friends and then JR8.

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Re: Singapore restricts its citizens of Indian origin from attending Modi's event

Postby ecureilx » Thu, 12 Nov 2015 10:35 pm

PNGMK wrote:Image


The headlines in the picture are more interesting ;)

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Re: Singapore restricts its citizens of Indian origin from attending Modi's event

Postby JR8 » Fri, 13 Nov 2015 12:19 am

Too interesting for some it seems...
http://www.economist.com/node/17082677

'Blacked out
Where The Economist is censored
Sep 21st 2010
SINCE January 2009 The Economist has been banned or censored in 12 of the 190-odd countries in which it is sold, with news-stand (as opposed to subscription) copies particularly at risk. India has censored 31 issues and at first glance might look like the worst culprit.'
'Do it or do not do it: You will regret both' - Kierkegaard

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Re: Singapore restricts its citizens of Indian origin from attending Modi's event

Postby rajagainstthemachine » Fri, 13 Nov 2015 9:52 am

Here are a couple more interesting articles

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/n ... are_btn_fb

and here's response to the above article

http://m.firstpost.com/india/behind-pan ... 72105.html


and the one below is unconnected to the first two but relevant to the thread.

http://www.itv.com/news/2015-11-12/why- ... ith-india/
To get there early is on time and showing up on time is late

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Re: Singapore restricts its citizens of Indian origin from attending Modi's event

Postby JR8 » Fri, 13 Nov 2015 10:24 pm

Thanks for those links Raj; most interesting. It's hard knowing what to conclude, Modi is certainly a polarising character it seems. I get a whiff of 'divide and conquer' about him. I'm actually surprised (having read those links) that SG let him publicly speak at all, as he appears to seek to 'whip up a crowd [in nationalism]'.

And that suit - mmmm klaaaassy!!! :-D

p.s. It's often interesting reading articles by learned Indian writers as they use English words that I'm unfamiliar with. 'Ressentiment', and so on. Fascinating, at first I thought it was a typo :)...
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