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Minor incident could spark war

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Re: Minor incident could spark war

Postby x9200 » Wed, 09 Dec 2015 9:36 pm

Eltonios wrote:By the way about the Su-24. Yesterday, it was found the black box. Putin said that he would be opened only with specialists from other countries. This box is recorded various flight parameters that are likely to respond to many questions.

Yep, I read about it and was pretty sure you were going to mention it. This is how it works (the propaganda) but in reality nobody is able to prove these are the actual recorders or that nobody tampered with them. These are just gestures, calculated to make the public image warmer and to improve credibility. Personally I think it is more for the domestic market rather than for the rest of the world.

Going one step back, Turks are not saints but unfortunately neither are the Russians and this is you, not them who violated the airspace.

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Re: RE: Re: Minor incident could spark war

Postby ecureilx » Thu, 10 Dec 2015 9:55 am

Eltonios wrote:By the way about the Su-24. Yesterday, it was found the black box. Putin said that he would be opened only with specialists from other countries. This box is recorded various flight parameters that are likely to respond to many questions.


Military black boxes?

Very very rarely do military planes carry black boxes, for obvious reasons. And that includes military cargo jets.

And even if they did, it's not like a commercial airliner black box that conforms to standards and can be read by foreign experts.

Ah, well, maybe mother Russia has been very benevolent and has black boxes on all military jets now so the enemy can analyse the performance figures and data.

Ah, what do I know. Like the Buk that self activated and destroyed the Malaysian plane, but presented all evidence and traces to be a Sukhoi, miracles do happen in Russia.

Keep going my friend, don't stop.

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Re: RE: Re: Minor incident could spark war

Postby ecureilx » Thu, 10 Dec 2015 12:46 pm

x9200 wrote:Going one step back, Turks are not saints but unfortunately neither are the Russians and this is you, not them who violated the airspace.


Then again the Turks too are having a bit too many fun pills.

Apparently the Turks got mad recently when a Russian Navy Ship displayed Deadly Weapons on board when transiting the straits of Bosphorus.

Seems the Russians forgot the memo to hide the guns on board navy ships.

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Re: Minor incident could spark war

Postby TMD » Thu, 10 Dec 2015 2:23 pm

x9200 wrote:
TMD wrote:
x9200 wrote:But it is a different subject.

Not sure what you meant by that, since you were the 1st to bring up the Crimea/Ukraine topic into this thread
Flexing muscles is mostly about the Ukraine/Crimea crisis, not the Syrian one.

Why then you bring in that issue into Syria discussion ?

x9200 wrote:Using this logic China should have right to take over Singapore.

Fortunately, that logic isn't the primary driving force behind China's foreign policy which includes non-interference for other countries' domestic affair. Perhaps a better example is Turkey attitude towards overseas Turkish minority.

x9200 wrote:
2) What's the point of conducting a referendum when the Yes/No decision is NOT about changing the status quo ?

I don't understand what you mean.


I left out one word.

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Re: Minor incident could spark war

Postby TMD » Thu, 10 Dec 2015 2:29 pm

x9200 wrote:
Eltonios wrote:By the way about the Su-24. Yesterday, it was found the black box. Putin said that he would be opened only with specialists from other countries. This box is recorded various flight parameters that are likely to respond to many questions.


Yep, I read about it and was pretty sure you were going to mention it. This is how it works (the propaganda) but in reality nobody is able to prove these are the actual recorders or that nobody tampered with them. These are just gestures, calculated to make the public image warmer and to improve credibility. Personally I think it is more for the domestic market rather than for the rest of the world.

Going one step back, Turks are not saints but unfortunately neither are the Russians and this is you, not them who violated the airspace.


That is why Russia ofter the FDR to international panel scrutiny.
Perhaps the Turkish side can share recorders from those F-16 involved - assuming the US-designed system is more capable than Russian's device in casting more light into the incident.
Last edited by TMD on Thu, 10 Dec 2015 2:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: RE: Re: Minor incident could spark war

Postby JR8 » Thu, 10 Dec 2015 2:29 pm

Eltonios wrote:By the way about the Su-24. Yesterday, it was found the black box. Putin said that he would be opened only with specialists from other countries. This box is recorded various flight parameters that are likely to respond to many questions.



8-Dec. 'Earlier Vladimir Putin instructed Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu to unseal the flight data recorder from the Russian warplane downed by the Turkish Air Force only in the presence of international experts.
"As for the flight data recorder, we'll look at it now. Has it been unsealed?" Putin said at a meeting with Shoigu on Dec. 8.
"I'll ask you not to unseal it for the time being, and unseal it only together with foreign specialists. Everything needs to be thoroughly documented," Putin said.
http://rbth.com/news/2015/12/09/putin-a ... ack_549333


9-Dec. ‘Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu showed the black box to Putin at a meeting on Tuesday. The president requested that it remain closed until foreign experts arrive to participate in an investigation into the downing. - However, on the same day as the meeting between Shoigu and Putin, the NTV television channel reported that the black box had already been opened and examined by Russian experts, the state-run newspaper Rossiiskaya Gazeta reported.’ http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/arti ... 52367.html
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Re: Minor incident could spark war

Postby TMD » Thu, 10 Dec 2015 2:30 pm

Eltonios wrote:....Reading your comments, in particular the Crimea. Guys, it's not even want to discuss. Take a ticket to Sevastopol, Simferopol, and personally get to know the people living there about the alleged annexation, seizure and other nonsense that writing English-language media. People made their choice. Now happy in the present. A Ukrainian nationalists are still trying every possible way to spoil. Recently blew power lines. Leaving the Crimean peninsula without power.....


This was covered in NYT. Curious why this wasn't covered as extensive as the alleged Crimea "annexation" by certain media. :wink:
As Sabotage Blacks Out Crimea, Tatars Prevent Repairs
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/24/world ... .html?_r=0
Last edited by TMD on Thu, 10 Dec 2015 2:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: RE: Re: Minor incident could spark war

Postby TMD » Thu, 10 Dec 2015 2:41 pm

ecureilx wrote:Military black boxes?
Very very rarely do military planes carry black boxes, for obvious reasons. And that includes military cargo jets. And even if they did, it's not like a commercial airliner black box that conforms to standards and can be read by foreign experts. Ah, well, maybe mother Russia has been very benevolent and has black boxes on all military jets now so the enemy can analyse the performance figures and data.


what's the point of installing FDR in combat jets if the device doesn't "conforms to standards" (whatever that means) ?

And if your assertion is true about the Russian device not readable by "foreign experts", it still present an golden opportunity for any non-Russian an access to restricted info. BTW, Putin has open the invitation to
independent British specialists to take part in the Su-24 black box decoding.
http://sputniknews.com/world/20151209/1 ... k-box.html

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Re: RE: Re: Minor incident could spark war

Postby ecureilx » Thu, 10 Dec 2015 2:55 pm

TMD wrote:what's the point of installing FDR in combat jets if the device doesn't "conforms to standards" (whatever that means) ?


I give up man.

Fighters and military jets don't carry black boxes, except for those doing cargo / military pax, for obvious reasons.

If the FDR can be read by enemies, it's not a fighter jet anymore.

Never mind.

You are on to something very strong there ...

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Re: RE: Re: Minor incident could spark war

Postby TMD » Thu, 10 Dec 2015 2:57 pm

JR8 wrote:
Eltonios wrote:By the way about the Su-24. Yesterday, it was found the black box. Putin said that he would be opened only with specialists from other countries. This box is recorded various flight parameters that are likely to respond to many questions.



8-Dec. 'Earlier Vladimir Putin instructed Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu to unseal the flight data recorder from the Russian warplane downed by the Turkish Air Force only in the presence of international experts.
"As for the flight data recorder, we'll look at it now. Has it been unsealed?" Putin said at a meeting with Shoigu on Dec. 8.
"I'll ask you not to unseal it for the time being, and unseal it only together with foreign specialists. Everything needs to be thoroughly documented," Putin said.
http://rbth.com/news/2015/12/09/putin-a ... ack_549333


9-Dec. ‘Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu showed the black box to Putin at a meeting on Tuesday. The president requested that it remain closed until foreign experts arrive to participate in an investigation into the downing. - However, on the same day as the meeting between Shoigu and Putin, the NTV television channel reported that the black box had already been opened and examined by Russian experts, the state-run newspaper Rossiiskaya Gazeta reported.’ http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/arti ... 52367.html


Suddenly, Russian media becomes a reliable source to quote from, propaganda or not :mrgreen:

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Re: RE: Re: Minor incident could spark war

Postby TMD » Thu, 10 Dec 2015 3:09 pm

ecureilx wrote:
TMD wrote:what's the point of installing FDR in combat jets if the device doesn't "conforms to standards" (whatever that means) ?

I give up man. Fighters and military jets don't carry black boxes, except for those doing cargo / military pax, for obvious reasons. If the FDR can be read by enemies, it's not a fighter jet anymore.
Never mind. You are on to something very strong there ...


2 Corrections:

a) You questioned Russia's FDR "standard", not about the existence of recorders in frontline combat jets.
Perhaps you forget data in such devices can be encrypted.

b) Most modern military jets do have devices similar to FDR. Some even have two, as in most civilian planes.
http://www.wistv.com/story/4817418/navy ... -shaw-f-16

A recovered FDR from a USN F/A-18 after crashing during a carrier landing.
This model is unique to military since it is designed to eject midair rather an staying with the stricken jet.
Image

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Re: RE: Re: Minor incident could spark war

Postby JR8 » Thu, 10 Dec 2015 3:21 pm

TMD wrote:And if your assertion is true about the Russian device not readable by "foreign experts", it still present an golden opportunity for any non-Russian an access to restricted info.


Lol - sure, Putin is all for giving away state secrets...

TMD wrote:BTW, Putin has open the invitation to independent British specialists to take part in the Su-24 black box decoding.


Putin already knows precisely what data is in these things; he probably put it there himself. So, what might they show, that the planes spent the day at Disneyland?
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Re: RE: Re: Minor incident could spark war

Postby ecureilx » Thu, 10 Dec 2015 3:23 pm

TMD wrote:A recovered FDR from a USN F/A-18 after crashing during a carrier landing.
This model is unique to military since it is designed to eject midair rather an staying with the stricken jet.


So, say I am Russia, I shoot down an F18, and then I can take the FDR and learn all about the performance and data of the F18 ?

or vice versa, when a Russian Su gets shot down, the Americans can gleefully learn all about the Su ?

So it is Like in the case of KAL 007, where the Russians downloaded the FDR/CVR and knew all about the flight.

That's what I meant by Standards.

What you are quoting are not FDR, per se, in Civil terms. If fighters started carrying FDRs, they are not gonna be 'open source', that's my bet.

So in this case, Russian will decipher what their plane supposedly did, and give cooked transcripts to the rest of the world -

Just get Real man !!!!!

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Re: RE: Re: Minor incident could spark war

Postby ecureilx » Thu, 10 Dec 2015 3:25 pm

JR8 wrote:Putin already knows precisely what data is in these things; he probably put it there himself. So, what might they show, that the planes spent the day at Disneyland?


Precisely. if the guys can cook up a non-existent Ukrainian Frogfoot to have shot down MH 17, what else can't they do ?

They did cook up the Frogfoot, including videos, and a lot of manufactured evidences ..

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Re: RE: Re: Minor incident could spark war

Postby TMD » Thu, 10 Dec 2015 3:33 pm

JR8 wrote: Lol - sure, Putin is all for giving away state secrets...
Putin already knows precisely what data is in these things; he probably put it there himself. So, what might they show, that the planes spent the day at Disneyland?


Are those comments an opinion or factual ?


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