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The causes of the current EU migrant crisis.

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The causes of the current EU migrant crisis.

Postby JR8 » Sat, 19 Sep 2015 10:03 pm

I read this article this morning, and found it persuasive. I suppose a one line summary is - how the best of original intentions, can come back to potentially severely prejudice you later...
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... worse.html

It's a long piece, written by someone apparently very informed on the subject. The headline is...

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'The folly of Europe's hand-wringing elite: In this courageously controversial article, a leading Left-wing voice says misguided compassion is only making the migrant catastrophe worse'
'Do it or do not do it: You will regret both' - Kierkegaard

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Re: The causes of the current EU migrant crisis.

Postby x9200 » Sun, 20 Sep 2015 10:29 am

I agree with most of the points mentioned in this article including these on the EE perspective, but for many, also myself, there is one additional point strongly weighting against the open unrestricted acceptance. The Western European countries, like the UK, France or Germany, or even the Netherlands, traditionally accepting the emigrants, miserably failed to integrate them. I am talking about the emigration 1-2 generations back. Many of these people never assimilated with the society what resulted in all sort of ghettos and extremists. People are just afraid that this will happen on much more extended scale as nothing seems to be in place to prevent it. I think this may be the main reason to be against for even well educated people. It's not really xenophobia in this case. What is IMHO desperately needed and I don't see any of it:
- screening to distinguish between the refugees from the economy based migrants
- an efficient and robust plan to integrate these people

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Re: The causes of the current EU migrant crisis.

Postby JR8 » Sun, 20 Sep 2015 5:55 pm

x9200 wrote: The Western European countries, like the UK, France or Germany, or even the Netherlands, traditionally accepting the emigrants, miserably failed to integrate them.


To an extent. It is difficult to prepare in that depth for the unexpected and unknown. So the destination countries are being handed a massive and new challenge.
Such previous exoduses have usually been due to humanitarian crises. Vietnamese, Cambodian, Ugandan Asian (Subcontinental) refugees for example. A number of the former used to live in my childhood village and facilitated by their adoptive parents went to huge lengths to integrate into village life. They received a lot of help and support back and became fully accepted into the community. The latter, from Uganda, again there was huge sympathy for them, and a sense of historic Commonwealth obligation. Many have progressed in life with great success, not least due to the cultural habits of seeking to get educated, and working very hard.
But I think the elephant in the room is that they integrated quickly and well, not least as they saw the benefit of doing so, and culturally were able to adapt.

x9200 wrote: I am talking about the emigration 1-2 generations back. Many of these people never assimilated with the society what resulted in all sort of ghettos and extremists.


Quite. And look at who it is that has historically become ghetto-dwellers. Those whom for what ever reason can't or refuse to integrate. Religion seems to be a major factor in such cases IMO. And the host country isn't going to tolerate established neighbourhoods being turned by new immigrants into say sharia-law-for-all zones. That was attempted in a couple of areas of the UK, where young activists from one of the mosques decided they'd set up their own sharia patrols in the neighbourhood to control consumption of alcohol, immodest dress, umarried couples holding hands, and so on.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia_patrols
And -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kC2PdQNfJhM
'Published on 23 Oct 2013
3 days after arriving from Florida USA, student Francesco Hounye, 22 was attacked and scarred for life for entering the "Muslim Only Area" of Whitechapel, Tower Hamlets [London] WHILST DRINKING BEER!!!. Muslim Patrol said back in February what they would do to such people (and the Police gave tacit approval by not doing anything) and they have delivered on their promise.'


People see stuff like that and the whole community get tarred by it, not least because very few people from that community will stand up and speak out against it. It is that kind of inaction on their part that will handicap their whole community until they accept their ways need to change.

x9200 wrote: People are just afraid that this will happen on much more extended scale as nothing seems to be in place to prevent it. I think this may be the main reason to be against for even well educated people. It's not really xenophobia in this case. What is IMHO desperately needed and I don't see any of it:
- screening to distinguish between the refugees from the economy based migrants
- an efficient and robust plan to integrate these people


It's hard to prevent against all and every means a refugee/economic migrant might use to reach a perceived land of free milk+honey.
There are asylum camps in northern France (last stop en route to the UK). France should, under the asylum laws, process these people as asylum seekers in and to France, but the immigrants aren't seeking that, they're heading for the UK. So the French conveniently turn half a blind eye, ignore their obligations, while they hope all these new arrivals will find some way into the UK. You see this 'let it be the next man's problem' all the way along such journeys, like Syria > Turkey > Greece+Croatia (IIRC Croatia laid on buses and trains to help accelerate the exporting of *their* problem) all the way on to the wealthiest and softest-touch countries in the EU. So much for European fraternity; it's a masterclass in naked national self-interest, from country after country. There should be EU-wide policy on this... but there is not a hint of anything like that I am aware of. You have some unilaterally countries closing their borders, or effectively doing so... so much for Schengen and the EUs right to freedom to borderless travel.

So yes you do need screening, to separate economic from humanitarian cases. You know the problems that go with that. Where would it happen, how much would it cost, how would you return those that don't qualify. ... How do you return a refugee family who've strung out the legal process as long as possible, and now have a child that's in a local school? A lot of these migrants know they have no right to EU residence but the state hasn't the means to ever get around to removing those without that right. And so more of such people come...

Your last point. You can't plan for people integrating when many of them have no desire or intention of doing so. A lot of the current refugees are moslems. And sadly moslems (when considered as a whole) have a track record of not wishing to integrate within other cultures, and instead sometimes seeking to impose their ways upon their hosts. That's a pretty sure way to spark a popular backlash against themselves, but only they don't seem to see this.
'Do it or do not do it: You will regret both' - Kierkegaard

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Re: The causes of the current EU migrant crisis.

Postby x9200 » Wed, 23 Sep 2015 9:09 am

Sorry JR8, took me a while to get back to this thread after rather heavy Sunday night.
Yep, I am aware of the religion background of most of the problems. Religion is opium for the masses (Karl Marx I believe) so it is pretty understandable that many of those who did not assimilate properly (what is most often needed to be successful in a society) turned into religion. Religions always promise a better future within your basic subjective means. And yes, I am also aware of the Sharia patrols. Here is more a story version: https://youtu.be/ra45nX9JmW4
Leaving aside the journalist not particularly bright with her responses to the patrol (~2min), that's pretty much a nice summary of the problems. People are really afraid of what happens in the UK, Sweden, Germany, France. I mean, not only people from these countries but all the strong reservations coming from the Visegrád Group (Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland and Slovakia) are also partly based on this sort of fear.

Something has to be in place to prevent further escalation of these issues, difficult or not. If nothing is possible to address them, then there should be no acceptance of such people to EU. EU and perhaps US should help the refugees outside EU, preferably in their own country. MHO.

I wonder very much what is the real level of approval from the societies to accept the immigrants (the unclassified mix flooding Europe) and to what Brussels tries to impose.

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Re: The causes of the current EU migrant crisis.

Postby x9200 » Tue, 08 Dec 2015 4:56 pm

So with the recent victory of Le Pen looks like the EU countries governments fail one by one simply neglecting to address peoples' fears. Not surprisingly as all they can say is that being a Muslim or a migrant is not equal to a terrorist.

BTW, this piece is just excellent:

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Re: The causes of the current EU migrant crisis.

Postby Strong Eagle » Wed, 09 Dec 2015 8:22 am

^^^^^^
The female talking head in the video above... what a bloody idiot! Is this what journalism has come to? Stupid sensationalism as opposed to investigation and debate.

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Re: The causes of the current EU migrant crisis.

Postby Primrose Hill » Thu, 10 Dec 2015 8:36 am

and then Donald Trump. Now there's a petition that he is barred from travelling to UK

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Re: RE: Re: The causes of the current EU migrant crisis.

Postby ecureilx » Thu, 10 Dec 2015 9:43 am

Primrose Hill wrote:and then Donald Trump. Now there's a petition that he is barred from travelling to UK

He owns property in UK !!!

Maybe he's gonna move to Scotland ;)

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Re: RE: Re: The causes of the current EU migrant crisis.

Postby Barnsley » Thu, 10 Dec 2015 9:51 am

ecureilx wrote:
Primrose Hill wrote:and then Donald Trump. Now there's a petition that he is barred from travelling to UK

He owns property in UK !!!

Maybe he's gonna move to Scotland ;)


I think he owns most of it already...

Wonder if Salmond will be cozying up to Donald :D
Life is short, paddle harder!!

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Re: The causes of the current EU migrant crisis.

Postby MikeJones » Thu, 10 Dec 2015 1:35 pm

I'm guessing probably not :)

http://www.politico.eu/article/donald-trump-scotland-disapproval-remarks-muslims-snp/

Even better he's got the support of Piers Morgan , quite possibly the most punchable man in Britain

http://www.politico.eu/article/trump-weighs-in-on-british-petition-trying-to-ban-him-from-uk/

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Re: The causes of the current EU migrant crisis.

Postby JR8 » Thu, 10 Dec 2015 3:44 pm



I did a double-take on the pic, I thought it was Kanye West! :o :lol:
'Do it or do not do it: You will regret both' - Kierkegaard

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Re: The causes of the current EU migrant crisis.

Postby JR8 » Fri, 08 Jan 2016 5:48 pm

I found this a striking statistic: In summary in Sweden, perhaps one of the most liberal/progressive societies in the world, as a result of immigration from North Africa/Middle East, the proportion of male vs female 16/17 year olds is now wider than in China, despite the latter's skewed demographics resulting from historic 1-child policies.

Extract:
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'According to Unicef, more than one in five of the migrants is under 18. Of those youngsters on their own, about 90 per cent will be male. In Sweden, which welcomed nearly 28,000 migrants in the first nine months of last year, 71 per cent of all applicants for asylum were male.

On any given day in 2015, about 90 unaccompanied males younger than 18 came in, compared with just eight unaccompanied females. As a result, among 16- and 17-year-olds across Sweden as a whole, the male-to-female ratio is far more skewed even than in China at the height of its one-child policy, only recently relaxed.

As a fascinating article by Valerie Hudson on the Politico website reveals, 18,615 males aged 16 and 17 entered Sweden in the past year, compared with just 2,555 females of the same age. Added to the existing population of the same age, it means there are now 121,914 males in Sweden aged 16 or 17, compared with 99,079 girls — a 123:100 male-to-female ratio. In China, the male to female ratio in the same age group is approximately 117:100.

Hudson argues that it will not take long for Sweden’s broader young adult population to be similarly skewed, assuming the trend in migrant arrivals continues as expected beyond this year.'

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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... rning.html
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Re: The causes of the current EU migrant crisis.

Postby x9200 » Sat, 09 Jan 2016 12:34 pm

So what happened to the girls?

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Re: The causes of the current EU migrant crisis.

Postby JR8 » Sat, 09 Jan 2016 9:04 pm

Presumably they have yet to make the journey? Look at photos of the seemingly almost endless lines trekking across Europe and it's predominantly males. There might be a parallel in the early (post-war) Sub-Con immigration to the UK. Usually the men went first, and once they got themselves established women and any children could follow.
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Re: The causes of the current EU migrant crisis.

Postby x9200 » Sat, 09 Jan 2016 9:39 pm

JR8 wrote:Presumably they have yet to make the journey? Look at photos of the seemingly almost endless lines trekking across Europe and it's predominantly males. There might be a parallel in the early (post-war) Sub-Con immigration to the UK. Usually the men went first, and once they got themselves established women and any children could follow.

Haven't they supposed to be refugees fleeing out of their countries for the safety reasons? How is it than their women were left behind?

On a related note and after what happened in NY eve in Germany and many other EU countries, I hope there will be some awakening before the Europe is completely brain dead from this self-destructive political correctness.


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