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sg employment down, foreigners ... up

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Re: sg employment down, foreigners ... up

Postby x9200 » Fri, 18 Sep 2015 8:16 am

calugaruvaxile wrote:x9200, i posted one more: after the employment and productivity data followed the nodx and gdp data. so for, the facts tend to align on my story, not on yours :).

but i wouldn't say "immature". "crookish" would be a more suitable word

You mean like 2 data points that are out are aligned while few hundred to come are yet to be known?
For the word, I don't know, I would not use that one for sure for the reason that I am of these probably few expats who see the efforts of LKY and his successors as genuine (not to be confused with Western-democratic). But regardless, in the context of this discussion it still would be immature because it wouldn't address any critical issues or just work against solving them. It would be something to address short, opportunistic goals what I believe is not the case.

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Re: sg employment down, foreigners ... up

Postby calugaruvaxile » Fri, 18 Sep 2015 9:19 am

x9200 wrote:It would be something to address short, opportunistic goals what I believe is not the case.


this is a joke, right? :mrgreen: the whole sg society works on a short-term, opportunistic goals model.

as for the datapoints, 2 is better than none, with more to come.

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Re: sg employment down, foreigners ... up

Postby kaseyma » Fri, 18 Sep 2015 9:50 am

x9200 wrote:
calugaruvaxile wrote:
x9200 wrote:Surely not. Cutting down the No of foreigners was only about healing objectively benign symptoms. How this supposed to do any good to the whole bunch of underlying problems? As somebody said, let's break the thermometer so we will have no fever.


c'mon ... cutting down the number of foreigners was a populist measure meant to show the populos that the gov't does something about it. actually the pap took a lot of wind from the opos' sails with these populist employment measures (aka jobs bank and likewise). well, it turned out that the effect of these measures is negative.

Ehem. And you think what I was talking about? Symptoms: angry society cos many foriners lah. Healing the symptoms? .....
True problems? Problems with the local workforce.

calugaruvaxile wrote:why i posted this? not for the numbers per se. i just want to stress that the dream is over, once the elections have passed. and that the populace has been effectively fooled to believe a false reality. and now, it's time to wake up.

my bet: this is just the first step: showing the real numbers. oh, i do believe that the next numbers they will show is about some contracting economy. step to is to pay for the pork barrel giveaways. bonus cuts, gst increase, etc etc. this, probably justified by the contracting economy numbers.

i estimated that there will be a honeymoon (literally one month of love), and then it will start. but it seems that the gov't is hyper-eager to put the populace to pay. maybe the accounts are really bad

What you described would be typical for an immature government of some pupulistic opportunists and the SG gov is not such gov. What IMHO they did and still be doing for some time is the lesser evil thing but the main problem to solve is out there and they are painfully aware of it. Unfortunately this problem is not that easy to be solved. What I mean, such a game can be played only once within a give time period (>a decade).

More like a generation or two.
What needed to be done 50 years ago might have been easier to see.
The current generation does have a more difficult challenge - the obvious good things to do have already been done.
When you're running with the best it takes a lot of effort just to eke out what seems like small gains or even just to keep your place.
What is needed now is far reaching vision about what the world will require (what to prepare for) and some very out-of-the-box thinking.
Too bad citizens with those skills seem to be in the group of a quarter million that have gone where those skills are most appreciated, and those left behind seem only able to dream up shallow appeasements.

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Re: sg employment down, foreigners ... up

Postby x9200 » Fri, 18 Sep 2015 11:40 am

kaseyma wrote:More like a generation or two.
What needed to be done 50 years ago might have been easier to see.
The current generation does have a more difficult challenge - the obvious good things to do have already been done.
When you're running with the best it takes a lot of effort just to eke out what seems like small gains or even just to keep your place.
What is needed now is far reaching vision about what the world will require (what to prepare for) and some very out-of-the-box thinking.
Too bad citizens with those skills seem to be in the group of a quarter million that have gone where those skills are most appreciated, and those left behind seem only able to dream up shallow appeasements.

^++1
To go forward they have to fix what they introduced (or neglected to address) two generations earlier in the process of building up the society. And this is going to take another 2 generations to fix.

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Re: sg employment down, foreigners ... up

Postby JR8 » Fri, 18 Sep 2015 2:11 pm

kaseyma wrote:Too bad citizens with those skills seem to be in the group of a quarter million that have gone where those skills are most appreciated, and those left behind seem only able to dream up shallow appeasements.


Perhaps it is ironic that to achieve step-1 of the 'miracle' economic journey, SG has driven out many of the citizen's who will be required in order to achieve step-2 (replacing the higher end FT workforce with SCs).

What does SG need to become to stop local talent quitting?
Then there is a catch-22. It seems that to compete vs higher end FT, SCs need to spend time working abroad. But by going abroad some it seems find greener pastures. How do you create a top-tier of SC employees, who've necessarily broadened out their skills abroad, who actively want to return to SG? I think this is what Contact Singapore [CS] seeks to address. But an advice-line, and a goody-bag of Yeo's cooking sauces does not seem enough to tip the balance. [Have quitters moved to a post-goody-bag space?] Free Mercedes, free condo? (I pondered this briefly 1/4-seriously)... nope, SCs who have quit to some extent have moved to a 'post-materialistic' space, at least compared to life in SG. So gifts and freebies won't bring them back.

Creating CS showed good foresight, but I don't know if such an agency can ultimately offer what might be required. Having more onerous hiring rules for MNC's, trying to force them to hire locals and quitters might tip the balance for those companies themselves to quit. That was where the previous reference to Ayn Rand's philosophy comes in. Is a goody-bag of three packets of cooking sauce going to tempt back the SC-quitter who moved to Europe, got a job, married local, started a family, and now runs her own catering business and shop [actual example]? Or the SC who is now in an official gay marriage, and has a senior position in a NYC law firm? [another actual example, and I know of plenty more of these kind of SCs who each have compelling reasons not to move back].
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Re: sg employment down, foreigners ... up

Postby JR8 » Fri, 18 Sep 2015 2:45 pm

x9200 wrote:To go forward they have to fix what they introduced (or neglected to address) two generations earlier in the process of building up the society. And this is going to take another 2 generations to fix.


^+1. Yes, I think you're probably right.
Going back to the issue of homosexuality*. The laws as are were introduced in a belief they would increase birth-rates. Some might find that thinking now rather old fashioned. Does it still serve a useful purpose, or does it serve to force an element of quitters out [er... out, 'out of the closet' abroad?]. AFAIR it was only about 3-4 years ago that SG issued it's first DP to the spouse of a gay FT on an EP (sorry ;)), and I recall much chat amongst those in the SC-quitter diaspora re: how SG might finally be loosening up re: this matter. And how maybe down the line it might be more tolerated amongst SCs in SG. But something so entrenched and taboo doesn't (possibly, I don't know I'm not a politician) merit just the law changing, it requires society to change. When a gay SC-quitter can openly live the life of his choosing in SG and be embraced by society, then, maybe, he/she might be encouraged to return.

This is just one example, one that is simple for me to give. But perhaps it is representative of the deep challenges that lie within progressing from step-1 to step-2.... ?

* And for the avoidance of doubt no I'm not, ie. I'm not proselytising any personal manifesto :) But it seems to be a theme with some materiality I've noticed amongst the SC-quitter diaspora that I know.
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Re: sg employment down, foreigners ... up

Postby x9200 » Fri, 18 Sep 2015 9:01 pm

A close friend of mine is a gay living here, in Singapore and to be frank I don't see any clear ostracism from the society. At least from my, probably limited perspective. It looks like they are reasonably free to do anything they want and it's not like they have to hide somewhere, pretend they are straight and not tell anybody. Of course gay parades, formal marriages and such are out of question but in principle one may live a normal life without it.

But I had recently a funny encounter perhaps proving otherwise. One local guy told me my motorcycle was nice because it was bisexual. I have a scooter, and what he meant was the analogy to the women's and men's bicycles. What he meant was clear to me yet he spent next 10 min apologising to me for what he said and despite me saying few time "no problem, I know what you mean" was clearly embarrassed.

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Re: sg employment down, foreigners ... up

Postby calugaruvaxile » Fri, 18 Sep 2015 10:33 pm

from today's "times": "Building economy while keeping Singaporean core a "tricky balancing act"".

and i quote: "Urging Singaporeans not to be xenophobic, Ms Indranee added: "We should be willing to allow people to join the Singapore family."

so now it's back to bringing in cheap labor. the economy crumbling, the "mature" gov't is doing the only move they know: cheap labor. the elections were a waste of time, in this respect. now it's back to business as usual.

i saw on several "places" some geniuses trying to explain why minimum wage is bad. well, they will be happy now!!

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Re: sg employment down, foreigners ... up

Postby JR8 » Sat, 19 Sep 2015 12:47 am

@X9. I know several gay SGns (in SG) too. Only one (rich family, v talented, in the closet) could afford to buy their own condo, the others not being legally married aren't eligible for HDBs.... so even in their 40s they mostly live with their parents. I don't imagine that is an enviable way to spend adulthood. Perhaps it is things like this that make pastures abroad appear very green... ?

But I agree in public being gay doesn't seem to be stigmatised at all. Just go and see Kumar (comedian/tranny), or the band Jive Talkin' (hilarious and talented tranny as lead vocals), both often down at Clarke Quay, the audience seem to adore them both. The prejudice seems to come from one primary source, and it's not the people.
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Re: sg employment down, foreigners ... up

Postby x9200 » Sat, 19 Sep 2015 5:23 am

I didn't think about this aspect (having their own flat). Yes, you are right, it is a serious obstacle for somebody with an average salary.

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Re: sg employment down, foreigners ... up

Postby maneo » Sat, 19 Sep 2015 9:17 am

JR8 wrote:...others not being legally married aren't eligible for HDBs.

It's not much of a consolation, but those 35 and older are eligible under the Single Singapore Citizen (SSC) scheme.

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Re: sg employment down, foreigners ... up

Postby JR8 » Sat, 19 Sep 2015 1:27 pm

maneo wrote:
JR8 wrote:...others not being legally married aren't eligible for HDBs.

It's not much of a consolation, but those 35 and older are eligible under the Single Singapore Citizen (SSC) scheme.


Ah yes I recall that. Here is a link if anyone needs it in future. http://www.hdb.gov.sg/fi10/fi10321p.nsf ... enDocument
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Re: sg employment down, foreigners ... up

Postby AndrewV » Tue, 22 Sep 2015 11:19 am

JR8 wrote:
kaseyma wrote:Too bad citizens with those skills seem to be in the group of a quarter million that have gone where those skills are most appreciated, and those left behind seem only able to dream up shallow appeasements.


Perhaps it is ironic that to achieve step-1 of the 'miracle' economic journey, SG has driven out many of the citizen's who will be required in order to achieve step-2 (replacing the higher end FT workforce with SCs).

What does SG need to become to stop local talent quitting?
Then there is a catch-22. It seems that to compete vs higher end FT, SCs need to spend time working abroad. But by going abroad some it seems find greener pastures. How do you create a top-tier of SC employees, who've necessarily broadened out their skills abroad, who actively want to return to SG? I think this is what Contact Singapore [CS] seeks to address. But an advice-line, and a goody-bag of Yeo's cooking sauces does not seem enough to tip the balance. [Have quitters moved to a post-goody-bag space?] Free Mercedes, free condo? (I pondered this briefly 1/4-seriously)... nope, SCs who have quit to some extent have moved to a 'post-materialistic' space, at least compared to life in SG. So gifts and freebies won't bring them back.

Creating CS showed good foresight, but I don't know if such an agency can ultimately offer what might be required. Having more onerous hiring rules for MNC's, trying to force them to hire locals and quitters might tip the balance for those companies themselves to quit. That was where the previous reference to Ayn Rand's philosophy comes in. Is a goody-bag of three packets of cooking sauce going to tempt back the SC-quitter who moved to Europe, got a job, married local, started a family, and now runs her own catering business and shop [actual example]? Or the SC who is now in an official gay marriage, and has a senior position in a NYC law firm? [another actual example, and I know of plenty more of these kind of SCs who each have compelling reasons not to move back].


I think the government needs to take a serious look at dual citizenship in order to bring many of these high quality singaporean exports back. Maybe a period of amnesty to declare any citizenships that they might have been having all this while and then instigate it as part of the constitution.

It's also a win-win situation for the government as singapore is not a extremely generous country to retire in, so the older people could sod off and become some else's problem :D (tongue in cheek comment pls)

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Re: sg employment down, foreigners ... up

Postby kaseyma » Sun, 18 Oct 2015 1:18 pm

I don't think that dual citizenship will make a difference for Singaporeans.
Many are giving up their American citizenship and the burdensome tax and FATCA procedures that come with it.

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Re: sg employment down, foreigners ... up

Postby AndrewV » Tue, 20 Oct 2015 11:12 am

kaseyma wrote:I don't think that dual citizenship will make a difference for Singaporeans.
Many are giving up their American citizenship and the burdensome tax and FATCA procedures that come with it.

Unless you are very wealthy, retiring in America will be difficult. Most will probably aim for a place which has free healthcare.

I am not condoning the abuse of the system (in fact I think it is wrong to do this), what I am saying is that, from a government known for it's shrewd handling of liability and cost, why are they not considering handing off the old-age problem to another country. Dual citizenship would allow the old folk to be another countries problem. so Singapore could get the maximum out of these people while they are in their economically productive years, and then have them be someone else's problem while they are old.

The defence argument may not hold as even Israel allows dual citizenship.

Again, I am looking at it from the point of view of a number crunching, liability minimising entity.


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