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Your Pay Pal experiences

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JR8
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Re: Your Pay Pal experiences

Postby JR8 » Thu, 17 Sep 2015 5:24 pm

I don't perceive any credit card risk. Or perhaps one; that you don't check your statement to spot any erroneous entries.

In say 30 years across many countries I have only had two fraudulent items on my account:
- One in the days of multi-layer slips (tracing paper > carbon > one or two further paper copies), where the sum was written by hand. And (Cuba) a say $12 bill had a '1' put in front of it to become $112. I had the copy showing $12. Always keep your receipts and reconcile your statements.
- One time my card was probably cloned, and it was used to make two large purchases from a luxury goods store in France. The bank blocked the card at that point. I'd been in London that entire long weekend, and could easily prove it.

In both cases the funds were swiftly refunded by the CC company. In the first case I went to the trouble of sending them a copy of the CC receipt. In the second they didn't even ask for proof. Isn't the point of a credit card, not just the credit factor, but that they come with customer protection?
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Re: Your Pay Pal experiences

Postby x9200 » Thu, 17 Sep 2015 6:00 pm

JR8 wrote:In both cases the funds were swiftly refunded by the CC company. In the first case I went to the trouble of sending them a copy of the CC receipt. In the second they didn't even ask for proof. Isn't the point of a credit card, not just the credit factor, but that they come with customer protection?

Not against the waste of your time and for loosing peace of mind. Besides, IIRC you don't use the cards that frequently but many people do, buying different stuff from different places up to few hundred times a year. I think I do close to 200 online transactions every year.

With the mentioned millage I had only one case of the card fraud and it was not associated with the online purchases.

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Re: Your Pay Pal experiences

Postby JR8 » Thu, 17 Sep 2015 6:35 pm

Twice in thirty years; hardly a waste of time. The first instance (the 'olden days' ;)) I wrote the bank a letter. The second they telephoned me, asking [roughly]:
Them: 'Have you made two over the counter purchases of luxury goods in France this weekend?'
Me: 'Huh? No, I've been at the Notting Hill Carnival all weekend!'
Them: 'Did you make a GBP10 purchase at Chatterjee's Curry House in Brixton on Friday?'
Me: 'No, I've never been to a place of that name, neither have I been to Brixton: Ever'.
Them: 'I thought as much. The latter was likely them testing a cloned card, before maxing it out on highly resaleable goods over the weekend. Are you aware of the card being out of your care, where a copy could have been made?'
Me: 'No, really I can't, I take very great care of my cards for precisely this reason.
Them: 'These items [x, y, z] will appear on your statement, but we will create cancellation entries for them today, so you'll see those too.'


And that was how it was. The above conversation took less time than any of the umpteen times I have tried and failed to satisfactorily use Paypal. That's why I suggested if you're familiar with PP etc, and use it regularly I'm sure it can be great.

You're right I don't use CCs often, but that's because there is little advantage in doing so compared to how it used to be. I used to do the majority of my spending on one; it was easier than always carrying cash. I only spent what I could afford so never ran a credit balance that accrued interest, in fact I'd buy stuff up to 56 days interest-free. The transaction came with insurance on the goods. Often the CC came with something like Airmiles too. It used to be a triple-win in that way.

I do have a CC now, but only really use it where it is required. Either hotels or flight bookings. I didn't have a SGn one in SG, just the above UK issued one. I can't say I missed having a local one. If at any time I had to use a SGn card I'd get the wife make the purchase and giro the funds into her a/c. That happened less than once a year as I recall.

edit/add: Since I have my accounts open I thought I'd check how often I use it. Between 1Jan14 to date an average of once each 19 days. That is more frequently than I thought! :-)
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Re: Your Pay Pal experiences

Postby x9200 » Fri, 18 Sep 2015 7:33 am

Using PP you still use the cc with all the benefits (unless there are some associated with the direct purchase) plus you have an extra protection incomparable to any (well, most) of the cc protection: i.e. 180 days of protection period against defective goods and goods not received. And it works pro-buyer to that extend that may be unfair to the sellers if the buyer decides to abuse it - you may ask zzm about his experience.

Talking about security of the cc I would be interested in hearing zzm's opinion about what happened to my amex CCs few years ago: both, the main and supplementary got charged at the same time with $1 charge and after that amex immediately called me to verify it. When I asked, why $1 only, the guy said, somebody probably tried out whether it worked. Now, the funny thing is these two cards have never been used with the same merchant, probably with the exception of Amazon. This seems to suggest that some really big fish got hacked without the fact never going out to the public.

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Re: Your Pay Pal experiences

Postby kaseyma » Fri, 18 Sep 2015 10:19 am

JR8 wrote:Twice in thirty years; hardly a waste of time. The first instance (the 'olden days' ;)) I wrote the bank a letter. The second they telephoned me, ....

I do have a CC now, but only really use it where it is required. Either hotels or flight bookings.

Have also had a couple cases, just in the past year, both after using CCs in the US for restaurants. Nasty place, the US.

In the second case the issuer contacted us, too.
They cancelled all the fraudulent transactions and sent a new card.
Normally use a dedicated card when traveling, so other items linked to our primary cards were not affected.

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Re: Your Pay Pal experiences

Postby zzm9980 » Fri, 18 Sep 2015 2:15 pm

I had an absolutely terrible PayPal experience which I have discussed in the forums in the past, just search for it.

Long story short: You have *no* protections as a seller, even if you encounter a scammer. PayPal Customer service is completely automated and terrible, and even if you can clearly document how the buyer is completely scamming they have a complete "cannot la" attitude about resolving the issue. I've spoken to numerous PayPal employees on a personal level who acknowledge this. Only use PayPal as a buyer. If you sell, only link it to a US-Based AMEX card or another card which has a very strong consumer advocacy position and will take your side if you dispute charges. This is the only thing that saved my ass from losing almost S$2000.

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Re: Your Pay Pal experiences

Postby NorrinRadd » Fri, 18 Sep 2015 10:44 pm

x9200 wrote:
NorrinRadd wrote:What's with the attitude? I wasn't asking for advice to do or not do, nor do I care what you do or not do.


x9200 wrote:If you don't care about the opinions given to you on this forum then why do you ask for any advice in the first place and waste other people time?


So sorry if I wasted your time, you took more time whinging than understanding the question.

I will go the extra mile and iterate it for you, shall you have problems understanding it, go and find someone to explain it to you.

I didn't ask advice, I asked a simple question about the purpose of using PP instead of a credit card.

Nakatago, JR8, zzm9980, Hidy Ho and kaseyma gave sensible answers without the self-righteousness or getting their panties twisted.

In your words. See, that wasn't so difficult for them, was it?


x9200 wrote:The reasons why to use PP were clearly stated. If you are not able to comprehend the responses its only your problem but I will go the extra mile and iterate it for you:


Again, the attitude. Who said anything about a "problem", that is your spin and emotional reaction talking.

x9200 wrote:- PP provides good buyer protection
- PP is more convenient to use (password based system - no need to key in all the cc info every time)
- PP is a well established agent with good track record what is often not the case for individual merchants (this part is about cc security - I'd rather have the cc details stored in one place I trust, than in few dozens places I trust less)


See, that wasn't so difficult, was it?

x9200 wrote:Shall you have problems understanding the above, go and find someone you pay to explain it to you. Only then you will have some rights to complain about the attitude and make fuss for receiving
responses you don't like.


Pot. Kettle. Black.

Again, it wasn't a case of "don't like the answer", it was more your ability to comprehend the intent. Part of yours above (finally) and the other's answers sufficed.
Last edited by NorrinRadd on Fri, 18 Sep 2015 11:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Your Pay Pal experiences

Postby NorrinRadd » Fri, 18 Sep 2015 11:42 pm

zzm9980 wrote:I had an absolutely terrible PayPal experience which I have discussed in the forums in the past, just search for it.

Long story short: You have *no* protections as a seller, even if you encounter a scammer. PayPal Customer service is completely automated and terrible, and even if you can clearly document how the buyer is completely scamming they have a complete "cannot la" attitude about resolving the issue. I've spoken to numerous PayPal employees on a personal level who acknowledge this. Only use PayPal as a buyer. If you sell, only link it to a US-Based AMEX card or another card which has a very strong consumer advocacy position and will take your side if you dispute charges. This is the only thing that saved my ass from losing almost S$2000.

Ok, this is a spin on PP I hadn't considered, the seller context, and not sure if any of the rationale to link one's CC to PP for selling had any merit for the responses to my original question, if so, my apologies. My purposes are for buying only.

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Re: Your Pay Pal experiences

Postby x9200 » Sat, 19 Sep 2015 5:04 am

NorrinRadd wrote:
x9200 wrote:
NorrinRadd wrote:What's with the attitude? I wasn't asking for advice to do or not do, nor do I care what you do or not do.


x9200 wrote:If you don't care about the opinions given to you on this forum then why do you ask for any advice in the first place and waste other people time?


So sorry if I wasted your time, you took more time whinging than understanding the question.

I will go the extra mile and iterate it for you, shall you have problems understanding it, go and find someone to explain it to you.

I didn't ask advice, I asked a simple question about the purpose of using PP instead of a credit card.

Nakatago, JR8, zzm9980, Hidy Ho and kaseyma gave sensible answers without the self-righteousness or getting their panties twisted.

In your words. See, that wasn't so difficult for them, was it?


x9200 wrote:The reasons why to use PP were clearly stated. If you are not able to comprehend the responses its only your problem but I will go the extra mile and iterate it for you:


Again, the attitude. Who said anything about a "problem", that is your spin and emotional reaction talking.

x9200 wrote:- PP provides good buyer protection
- PP is more convenient to use (password based system - no need to key in all the cc info every time)
- PP is a well established agent with good track record what is often not the case for individual merchants (this part is about cc security - I'd rather have the cc details stored in one place I trust, than in few dozens places I trust less)


See, that wasn't so difficult, was it?

x9200 wrote:Shall you have problems understanding the above, go and find someone you pay to explain it to you. Only then you will have some rights to complain about the attitude and make fuss for receiving
responses you don't like.


Pot. Kettle. Black.

Again, it wasn't a case of "don't like the answer", it was more your ability to comprehend the intent. Part of yours above (finally) and the other's answers sufficed.


So despite your earlier statement you actually care. Good. But the entitlement complex still needs to be fixed. I think it could be better done next time with a fresh requests of yours (if any and if needed).

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Re: Your Pay Pal experiences

Postby NorrinRadd » Sat, 19 Sep 2015 9:44 am

(Ignoring latest taunt)

Hidy Ho wrote: I don't want to input my CC information all over different place. I think it's more prudent to keep the information to limited number of places. For example, us-based Target company was hacked and credit card information leaked.


I agree, and that and what some others here said does explain their rationale to use PP over a credit card for payments to merchants. But - you are giving your CC info to PP, by linking your credit card to PP, PP can charge your CC, and clearly some people are ok with this.

PP, and your CC info in PP, is not immune to hackers:

https://www.paypal-community.com/t5/Abo ... d-p/840526

http://www.information-age.com/technolo ... ypal-users

http://www.leakeddata.info/2015/02/payp ... sword.html

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... ard+hacked

http://www.13wmaz.com/story/tech/2015/0 ... /70835822/

While I refuse to give PP my credit card info and instead use bank transfers to top up the account, I get it that this is my preference and that there must be good reasons beyond my purposes of using PP, which for me is like a kind of credit card or intermediary bank transfer.

PP can charge a credit card on a transactional (though not general) basis AFAIK without my permission or possibly knowledge. And in my last experience with them, they tried to do exactly that.

Now the background to this whole situation:

Tried to make a manual PP payment for a service recently, a service I've used before, a merchant I've used before, and paid by PP before.

Chose the "Use PayPal" option, and all looked fine until hitting "Submit", which then asked for credit card details, and there was no way around that.

I had sufficient funds in my PP account.

Contacted the merchant, they confirmed have no such CC requirements, and they were happy to not have my CC info.

Many emails back and forth to PP, the PP and the merchant together, and each time PP politely but cluelessly or intentionally kept missing the point and making excuses about the payment requirements. Each time I got a different answer or some variation on the answer.

I told them what I said at the start of this thread, that if I wanted my CC involved I would pay that merchant by CC directly and not use PP. I've never had any issues with this or any other merchant with my CC. Yes we all know many have had CC info breached.

Days and emails later, no solution, notified PP that if they didn't allow the transaction to go through without CC details entered, then I would pay the merchant direct and close my PP account. the more emails with still more variations on the rationale from PP various support people.

Contacted the merchant one last time, as they kept telling me they have no restrictions and tried their best to offer solutions, and that even one of their clients in Singapore did not have this issue. This merchant then mentioned an option on the payment or other screen, and to confirm whether or not it was ticked.

I didn’t remember seeing and was pretty sure that option wasn’t there when I tried this before, so I attempted the payment once more, got to the point where the request for CC details had been coming up, and, the bloody transaction went though! I didn't even want it to, but it did and without entering any CC details.

Contacted the merchant after receiving their order confirmation email, they said they hadn't changed anything. So clearly the change was on the PP side.

Not a word from PP on anything having changed before or after this, then an email from them the next day saying they were glad they could "explain it to me".

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Re: Your Pay Pal experiences

Postby zzm9980 » Sat, 19 Sep 2015 10:20 am

NorrinRadd wrote:Ok, this is a spin on PP I hadn't considered, the seller context, and not sure if any of the rationale to link one's CC to PP for selling had any merit for the responses to my original question, if so, my apologies. My purposes are for buying only.


Most people that use (or used in my case) Paypal for selling also use it for buying. Thus, CC or Bank account linked. Anyway, my point was more that PayPal is a terrible evil organization (more so than compared to its peers, which are also varying degrees of evil) and I suggest anyone who can not use them.

Paypal has some of the most sophisticated anti fraud systems in the world. They're all tuned solely to protect *PayPal* from fraud. Not its sellers, and not its buyers. I know this because I know people that work there and support them.

If your CC actually gets stolen or compromised, it will be much easier to deal with your bank than PayPal to sort everything out.

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Re: Your Pay Pal experiences

Postby zzm9980 » Sat, 19 Sep 2015 10:24 am

x9200 wrote:- PP is more convenient to use (password based system - no need to key in all the cc info every time)


More convenient, but less secure.

If you're using a password for financial transactions that you can remember easier than your CC information, you've already lost. What you should be doing is strong passwords per-site/service and keeping them in a password manager.

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Re: Your Pay Pal experiences

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sat, 19 Sep 2015 10:29 am

^^ This! But a general pain in the arse. ZZM, can you recommend a good Password manager that reasonably easy to use?

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Re: Your Pay Pal experiences

Postby x9200 » Sat, 19 Sep 2015 10:57 am

zzm9980 wrote:
x9200 wrote:- PP is more convenient to use (password based system - no need to key in all the cc info every time)


More convenient, but less secure.

If you're using a password for financial transactions that you can remember easier than your CC information, you've already lost. What you should be doing is strong passwords per-site/service and keeping them in a password manager.


It is only less secured because of the human factor but in principle it is not and actually can be more secure as the length of the cc No is limited.
I have a unique password for PP, completely random letters, digits and other alike, capital and small, longer then the cc No. It's stored on no machine even at home. When it comes to security I am on a paranoid side.

I don't trust any password manager for this sort of services where you may lose a lot of money and you are protected by a single authentication factor. Why the password manager is any better than me remembering a complex passwords for any critical sites?

This is what I normally do: I just make up a complex enough but with elements easy for you to remember: e.g. SmS#BluJAZZ_e-A-G-L-S_gathering%2015. Until I manage to get it remembered I write it somewhere down, inside my shoe for example, or if I use the service only from home, inside the toilet flushing water tank (for example). No, I'm not kidding. After I remember, I remove it.

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Re: Your Pay Pal experiences

Postby zzm9980 » Sat, 19 Sep 2015 11:00 am

sundaymorningstaple wrote:^^ This! But a general pain in the arse. ZZM, can you recommend a good Password manager that reasonably easy to use?


My favorite is 1Password, but it costs money. I use it. If you want free and you're cool with it only being on one system, Dashlane is recommended.

I recommend strongly against LastPass. The UI sucks (imo), only functions as a browser extension, and everything is stored on their servers in the cloud.


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