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Understanding the NS liability for PRs

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Scared-Stiff
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Understanding the NS liability for PRs

Postby Scared-Stiff » Mon, 20 Jul 2015 3:49 pm

My baby has got approval for his PR application. He will be obliged to do NS when the time comes.

Can anyone help answer the following:

Should he decide to give up his PR will the NS liability still remain?

That is, is there an age before which he must give up the PR in order to avoid NS liability, or is the liability enforced from birth?

I cannot seem to find any specifics on the ICA website. Also I cannot reach ICA by phone, number not working! :-/

Any help is much appreciated.

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Re: Understanding the NS liability for PRs

Postby Barnsley » Mon, 20 Jul 2015 4:07 pm

Scared-Stiff wrote:My baby has got approval for his PR application. He will be obliged to do NS when the time comes.

Can anyone help answer the following:

Should he decide to give up his PR will the NS liability still remain?

That is, is there an age before which he must give up the PR in order to avoid NS liability, or is the liability enforced from birth?

I cannot seem to find any specifics on the ICA website. Also I cannot reach ICA by phone, number not working! :-/

Any help is much appreciated.


Why did you apply for PR if the sole goal is to give it up?
Life is short, paddle harder!!

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Re: Understanding the NS liability for PRs

Postby Scared-Stiff » Mon, 20 Jul 2015 4:17 pm

My wife and I have lived in Singapore for some years now. I have lived in Singapore for 15 years myself. Our present intention is to carry on. However the situation may change. For example, I may need to return to my home country to take care of my aging parents.

There is no decision made as to whether he will give it up or no. The reason for this question is to understand his liabilities.

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Re: Understanding the NS liability for PRs

Postby Scared-Stiff » Mon, 20 Jul 2015 4:18 pm

Just to clarify, my wife and I are both PRs. We applied for our baby in order to make easy his continued stay here, as opposed to the hassle of renewing a long term visit pass every year.

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Re: Understanding the NS liability for PRs

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Mon, 20 Jul 2015 4:19 pm

Unless you follow the protocols TO THE LETTER, yes he will have to do NS. If you do not follow them to the letter, he will have to leave Singapore and will never be able to return as he will be considered a NS dodger and could be picked up even in the transit area of the airport if warranted. Read the following thread in it's entirety and a number of other threads in the Strictly Speaking forum where it has been covered in depth and is probably the most complete collection of information you are likely to find in one place here in Singapore. A lot of it has to deal with Singaporeans trying to get their children out without NS but all facets are covered. Start with this thread and if you get through it, search the forum for other posts. All will be answered by either Kraikk, Mad Scientist or myself and other posters.

viewtopic.php?t=61423

viewtopic.php?t=103474

viewtopic.php?t=103049

These will get you started......Think VERY CAREFULLY if you want to have your kid possibly Hate you at some point in his future for limiting his options just because YOU don't want him to do NS. This has happened a lot in the past 10 years or so.

Yes, he can give it up so long as he hasn't reached his 13th birthday and the steps to do so have been followed TO THE LETTER. (Actually, 11th is much safer - that was the old cut-off date).

viewtopic.php?t=108127

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Re: Understanding the NS liability for PRs

Postby Scared-Stiff » Mon, 20 Jul 2015 4:35 pm

Thank you. I will read the posts carefully and reply if I have any questions.

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Re: Understanding the NS liability for PRs

Postby Scared-Stiff » Wed, 22 Jul 2015 11:09 am

I have read through some of the posts. I have the following scenarios and questions for each:

Our current status is as follows: Our son has a PR approval letter pending completion of formalities.

Scenario 1:
We complete the formalities of accepting PR for our son. We renounce PR and inform the various authorities (as explained by PHK in 'Guide to NS issues thread') before he reaches age 11 and return to our home country. The consequence of this action would be that it will have "adverse impact on any immediate or future applications to work or study in Singapore" (ICA webpage)?

This thread is quite old (2009), so I would like to confirm that my son would still not be NS liable, and thus could not be arrested in transit or on a social visit to Singapore if he leaves before age 11.

Is there a likelihood that the present day rules may change overnight and I end up stuck with my son remaining NS liable regardless of PR renouncement?

Scenario 2:
We do not complete the formalities of accepting PR. Instead we continue on his LTVP and renew his LTVP every year. Would this be possible, or would the PR application have damaged his chances of getting a LTVP for the next year? If my son never becomes a PR and remains a foreignor would the odds of him having to work here on a work permit be affected?

Scenario 3:
My wife and I give up our PRs right now and simply leave. My son does not complete the formalities for his PR application and leaves along with us . Would my son's freedoms in Singapore be affected? I'll need to get another job in my home country, but to make a decision affecting my son's freedoms without my son's adult approval doesn't sit well with me right now.

Hypothetically speaking: It would seem that the NS requirement has lessened over the years due to popular dissent. What are the odds that things would be different when my son is say, 11 years old?

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Re: Understanding the NS liability for PRs

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Wed, 22 Jul 2015 12:31 pm

Scared-Stiff wrote:I have read through some of the posts. I have the following scenarios and questions for each:

Our current status is as follows: Our son has a PR approval letter pending completion of formalities.

Scenario 1:
We complete the formalities of accepting PR for our son. We renounce PR and inform the various authorities (as explained by PHK in 'Guide to NS issues thread') before he reaches age 11 and return to our home country. The consequence of this action would be that it will have "adverse impact on any immediate or future applications to work or study in Singapore" (ICA webpage)?

This is probably not entirely true (but the only anecdotal evidence of that is actually from a 3rd party source so I have to discount it) However, if it can be seen that the family utilized PR up to a certain point and then decided to return home after milking Singapore for all it could without having to commit anything, then you can rest assured that they will probably look askance an any future applications from either the son or the parents.

This thread is quite old (2009), so I would like to confirm that my son would still not be NS liable, and thus could not be arrested in transit or on a social visit to Singapore if he leaves before age 11.

If all the protocols are followed properly, then your son would have no problems visiting Singapore in the future. However, his likelihood of ever getting and working visa, let alone PR would be severely hampered if not downright impossible.

Is there a likelihood that the present day rules may change overnight and I end up stuck with my son remaining NS liable regardless of PR renouncement?

That is always a possibility. One never knows what the future holds here as it's a small city-state that can change directions on a dime. Not likely, but not an impossibility either.

Scenario 2:
We do not complete the formalities of accepting PR. Instead we continue on his LTVP and renew his LTVP every year. Would this be possible, or would the PR application have damaged his chances of getting a LTVP for the next year? If my son never becomes a PR and remains a foreignor would the odds of him having to work here on a work permit be affected?

If he never takes up PR and remain on an LTVP for the duration, it won't affect his chances of employment here, assuming all other qualities for employment are met (academics and experience - new grads are not likely to be able to get employment right out of school due the tightening of criteria to get passes). However, he will never be given PR because of the parents having been PRs, the ruse for him to avoid NS would be obvious. Additionally, the parents may well find that their ability to get a re-entry permit may suddenly vanish as well, for deliberately trying to deny the government what should rightly be due them (one NS man). Don't forget, the son, while not schooling in a local school system, as enjoyed the comfort and safety of Singapore for all those years.

Scenario 3:
My wife and I give up our PRs right now and simply leave. My son does not complete the formalities for his PR application and leaves along with us . Would my son's freedoms in Singapore be affected? I'll need to get another job in my home country, but to make a decision affecting my son's freedoms without my son's adult approval doesn't sit well with me right now.

This is the only Scenario that makes sense and will not hamper your son's future movements. But yes, this would eliminate all the problems.

Hypothetically speaking: It would seem that the NS requirement has lessened over the years due to popular dissent. What are the odds that things would be different when my son is say, 11 years old?

This country has a decreasing population of people to do NS. NS is not going to go away unless they become a part of another country and even then I doubt it will go away. Popular dissent is only from locals not wanting to do NS. But the locals, by far, demand that PRs do NS as well.


As a footnote, My son did his NS here and is also registered for the US Selective Service as well (so he doesn't limit himself in the future if he decides to go to the US - although mandatory service (the draft) as been mothballed since 1975). He has nothing bad to say about NS and in fact, most actually find out the networking opportunities are, over the longer haul, more than worth the type spent. Also, it helps make a man out of him, something the parents aren't if they cannot understand the need/reasons for NS. Yes, I'm pro-NS but I'm also a NAM Vet and I realize the importance of all young men doing NS. I chose this way as there was less chance of my son actually having to follow the same route I had to take (war). In Singapore the training is good, safe and virtually zero change of being involved in real combat.

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Re: Understanding the NS liability for PRs

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Wed, 22 Jul 2015 12:36 pm

As an addendum to the above, the current discussions are the new voluntary service by PR of all types (PTS or Family Ties). At the clamouring of the local population,I can see this becoming a mandatory community service of x number of hours/day/weeks per year up to the age of 40 actually happening. In fact I hope it does happen. This will also help to weed out a lot of PR abusers from certain countries as they will run if that happens. Suits me fine. Maybe then the remaining PRs will start to get some respect back that we've lost thanks to the abusers.

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Re: Understanding the NS liability for PRs

Postby Scared-Stiff » Wed, 22 Jul 2015 4:18 pm

Thank you for your responses. It is certainly a lot to digest and we have some major decisions to be make!

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Re: Understanding the NS liability for PRs

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Wed, 22 Jul 2015 5:43 pm

Scared-Stiff wrote:but to make a decision affecting my son's freedoms without my son's adult approval doesn't sit well with me right now.


If you remove him from Singapore in order to have him avoid NS, you are, in fact, making a decision that will hamper his freedoms in the future. Letting him do NS will give him full freedom whereas avoiding it and possibly incurring the wrath of the government, will almost certainly restrict his future freedom of movement. It would be a shame for him to return to your home country, get a degree and some experience and be offered a plum position in Singapore by a major MNC and have to turn it down because of a bad decision may by his father 20 years earlier. Just sayin'....

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Re: Understanding the NS liability for PRs

Postby Mad Scientist » Thu, 23 Jul 2015 2:29 am

PRs families with sons will always have the shorter end of the stick compares to Sgers that have sons
You have little rights here apart from being a PR which allows you to buy HDB apartments much cheaper and a few other bits and pieces of benefits. But......... there is always the butt eh .......
Your son liability for NS sticks like a Giraffe head in the supermarket with little room to maneuver or negotiate
You cannot bake the cake and have it yourself, it ain't gonna happen hombre
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kids at 17 years old still can renounce his pr

Postby prttywendy » Tue, 01 Dec 2015 4:15 pm

hi everyone, I have contacted ica just now. Btw, they said it only takes a few hours to renounce PR if@ iCA in person with kids. or oversea high comm , it takes 4- 8 weeks to process. I will update here once I get it done. My family moved to North america since my son was 12 and this moment he can not miss high school final a few months to go back sg for just medical screening. they should provide oversea screening center. I am injured and can not bring him back before his next birthday and prior to his school completion. So by force, we are going to loss the connection to Singapore. I hope we know this when we applied his PR, actually I did not ask for PR, he was holding Dep pass all the time until we left sg if i am not wrong, only upon 15 years old, ICA sent me a letter to register his Ic. I stupidly fell into the loop and indeed we learn this lesson now. wish other parents learn this lesson too.

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Re: Understanding the NS liability for PRs

Postby PNGMK » Mon, 07 Dec 2015 7:38 am

Why the hell should Singapore taxpayers pay for an overseas screening centre? Good riddance.
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Re: Understanding the NS liability for PRs

Postby Strong Eagle » Mon, 07 Dec 2015 7:47 am

PNGMK wrote:Why the hell should Singapore taxpayers pay for an overseas screening centre? Good riddance.


How charitably "Christian" of you...


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