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Domestic Helper going overseas on day off

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ecureilx
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Re: RE: Re: Domestic Helper going overseas on day off

Postby ecureilx » Sun, 05 Jul 2015 10:54 am

x9200 wrote:He is probably referring to a situation when (for example), the maid gets arrested or does some damage abroad, or gets injured and is placed in a hospital so he thinks you may be obliged under SG law to help her.


ok, now again, because I don't agree with you and zzm doesn't mean i am a moron. Or calling names doesn't make anybody smart.

I am referring to past cases where maids had accidents and the employer was forced to pay for medical costs, and no exemption on that. There are ways to get away with it, but those methods are not right, and morally wrong, in case anybody thinks that it is cast in stone.

As far as MOM Singapore is concerned, while she holds the permit, her employer is her protector/God/whatever. Try disproving that. And until the pass is cancelled, the employer's can't employ another maid. Unless the law has been changed. And work permit conditions aren't the same as EP conditions.

And thanks for quoting the MOM law on 'what happens when the maid disappears'

What MOM doesn't explain is,

What happens in the interim:
a) Employer most likely will be denied employing another maid, good, if the employer - both parents are working and have kids at home.
b) If MOM investigations are inconclusive, employer may be barred from employing a maid, for periods of 12 months to 24 months, or longer - works great, if the employer has kids and both parents are working
c) if the maid decides to accuse the employer of x, y or z as the reason for her running away, again, look up b

And what a few employers found out, the hard way, when the maids decided to take a day trip to Malaysia, there are enough cases where the maid's bf/gf/lover/sponsor/relative/benefactor (whatever) decided she shouldn't work in Singapore anymore, or got too home sick, and armed with the passport, the maid got herself a ticket from Malaysia, and flew home directly. Leaving the employer in lurch

Singapore law, from what I know and dealt with, punishes the employer in most cases. Hence the stories of runaway workers (in case of work permit holders) being hunted and shipped out, like convicts, by the rent-a-cops specialising in worker deportation. If things weren't against the employers, why would employers pay rent-a-cops to ensure the worker has left Singapore, escorting them all the way till immigration and making sure the worker really has been kicked out.

Though westerners interpret the laws as against basic human right etc. etc. from the worker's point of view. Sorry, again, this is Singapore, and that's not the law here.

As for your comment that all agents are crooks, no comments. Probably you have been dealing with the really crooked ones

I know enough employment agents, who turn down employers and maids alike, if they smell something suspicious. And these agents do take efforts to ensure they don't incur demerit points, and insist on the maids being given mobile phones, with instructions to call the agent, should they find they can't cope with the work, or the employer or whatever, and they do have a 24x7 phone available, for the maid and the employer alike, to call.

And some have been in the business so long, I have even commented that they are choosy, and they reply that it is better to do a clean business than focus on money and lose the reputation.

And there are a minority of agents, of course, who don't give a hoot as to what happens, as long as they get their commission - and don't bother if the maid gets abused, or whatever. Who have the interest of the maid as their last thought

MOM does publish the demerit points of agencies, you can find it yourself.

PS: consult a lawyer ? seriously ? for a simple clarification ? Now, from my experience, most lawyers will find ways to part money from you, for advice that may not work for you, whereas a call to the agent will clarify- if the agent has good reputation.

Have a great Weekend. Or whatever is left of the weekend.

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Re: Domestic Helper going overseas on day off

Postby x9200 » Sun, 05 Jul 2015 11:02 am

MOM/ICA is clearly interested mostly in what happens to the maid while she is still in Singapore. For example, if the maid goes overseas and does not return, but the employer provides a copy of her itinerary (as of an airline etc) proving her intention to leave the country, this is already enough to get back the deposit after her WP is canceled.

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Re: RE: Re: Domestic Helper going overseas on day off

Postby x9200 » Sun, 05 Jul 2015 11:16 am

ecureilx wrote:PS: consult a lawyer ? seriously ? for a simple clarification ? Now, from my experience, most lawyers will find ways to part money from you, for advice that may not work for you, whereas a call to the agent will clarify- if the agent has good reputation.

All what you say is based on some vague anecdotal semi-evidence (actually opinions) from your colleagues or family or friends of the friends of the friends. You hardly ever provide any solid link to some legal documents. The problem is, majority of people have a very vague idea about the law and they tend to interpret various events the way they like or think they are (for whatever reason including making it more dramatic). If I want to be sure I'd rather pay some money than rely on sources I have doubts they are reliable.

BTW, I am still waiting for you *the other thread) to provide the legal basis of your claim that goods can be returned a seller within 7 days (legal right). What you posted about the lemon law did not point to anything like this and I think you knew about this or did not bother to read what you posted. Not nice.

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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Domestic Helper going overseas on day off

Postby ecureilx » Sun, 05 Jul 2015 11:53 am

x9200 wrote:....


I am out of town, sorry, my internet here is bad, and using tapatalk, it's not easy.

And well if you expect me to furnish specific cases where I knew more than what I reveal, in this forum, well, I will say I am sorry, and all my explanations and experiences are wrong, and you are right.

And by opinion if you believe I am imagining stuff, let it be so.

You are correct, ... No offense.

You can refer the CASE website about the lemon law, or wait till I get back ... to find the new consumer rules implemented in 2013 or so.

That was after few rounds of public consultations and discussions in the parliament. ..

Ps, I do have a life outside this forum ... :roll: :)

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Re: Domestic Helper going overseas on day off

Postby x9200 » Sun, 05 Jul 2015 12:27 pm

Good. Have a good rest, take your time, as much as you can and come back with something solid or for once stop using "legal" "not legal" if this is only based on opinions within your social circle.

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Re: Domestic Helper going overseas on day off

Postby ecureilx » Sun, 05 Jul 2015 12:37 pm

x9200 wrote:MOM/ICA is clearly interested mostly in what happens to the maid while she is still in Singapore. For example, if the maid goes overseas and does not return, but the employer provides a copy of her itinerary (as of an airline etc) proving her intention to leave the country, this is already enough to get back the deposit after her WP is canceled.


in a similar vein, do you have proof of MOM having accepted the itinerary and released the bond ?? :D

And pray, for argument sake, how do you get a flight itinerary from a run away maid, who you don't know how she disappeared ??

I am not sure if ICA will readily tell you through which check point she left Singapore, and let me know which airline release a PNR info so easily.

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Re: Domestic Helper going overseas on day off

Postby x9200 » Sun, 05 Jul 2015 12:50 pm

ecureilx wrote:
x9200 wrote:MOM/ICA is clearly interested mostly in what happens to the maid while she is still in Singapore. For example, if the maid goes overseas and does not return, but the employer provides a copy of her itinerary (as of an airline etc) proving her intention to leave the country, this is already enough to get back the deposit after her WP is canceled.


in a similar vein, do you have proof of MOM having accepted the itinerary and released the bond ?? :D

And pray, for argument sake, how do you get a flight itinerary from a run away maid, who you don't know how she disappeared ??

I am not sure if ICA will readily tell you through which check point she left Singapore, and let me know which airline release a PNR info so easily.


http://www.mom.gov.sg/passes-and-permit ... ve-for-fdw

If the FDW does not return

If your FDW fails to return to Singapore from overseas leave, you must:

Cancel the Work Permit to stop the levy.
Keep a copy of the FDW's travel ticket or a record of departure itinerary as proof.
After we have verified that your FDW has left and not re-entered Singapore, we will proceed to discharge the security bond.

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Re: Domestic Helper going overseas on day off

Postby zzm9980 » Mon, 06 Jul 2015 1:54 pm

x9200 wrote:
ecureilx wrote:in a similar vein, do you have proof of MOM having accepted the itinerary and released the bond ?? :D


http://www.mom.gov.sg/passes-and-permit ... ve-for-fdw

If the FDW does not return

If your FDW fails to return to Singapore from overseas leave, you must:

Cancel the Work Permit to stop the levy.
Keep a copy of the FDW's travel ticket or a record of departure itinerary as proof.
After we have verified that your FDW has left and not re-entered Singapore, we will proceed to discharge the security bond.


Point to X9200. :)

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Re: Domestic Helper going overseas on day off

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Mon, 06 Jul 2015 2:25 pm

Not too sure in this little tennis match. The quote is for a maid who has been given permission to go overseas, and therefore the Sponsor has the trip itinerary, etc. This whole thread is about a maid leaving on the off day without the Sponsor being even aware of it, let alone having itinerary details and flight? details. Bit different the way I see it. The answer? I don't have a clue as it's been 30 years since I've had a maid. Lots has changed and I'm in no position to venture an opinion. But at least you guys need to keep it apples to apples. ;-)

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Re: Domestic Helper going overseas on day off

Postby x9200 » Mon, 06 Jul 2015 5:54 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:Not too sure in this little tennis match. The quote is for a maid who has been given permission to go overseas, and therefore the Sponsor has the trip itinerary, etc. This whole thread is about a maid leaving on the off day without the Sponsor being even aware of it, let alone having itinerary details and flight? details. Bit different the way I see it.

Oh, sure sure, just see what I wrote earlier. I was digressing from the initial point illustrating with an example what really MOM/ICA is after. This seems to be about having a proof that the maid left the country rather than her being in good shape and a good girl while abroad. Having no itinerary details (or I guess some other proof the maid left Singapore) will just result in losing the deposit. I don't see anything pointing to some legal implications.

Besides, I also don't see any qualitative differences between the maid going for a longer holiday or leaving for a day. For both of the cases I don't think the employer has any legal obligation to get a permit from MOM/ICA.

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Re: Domestic Helper going overseas on day off

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Mon, 06 Jul 2015 6:28 pm

If it will 'just result in losing the deposit', I'd say that is a legal implication right off the bat. Maybe not a criminal one or even a misdemeanor, but there is some kind of legal implications or they cannot keep your deposit, I wouldn't think. But then again, maybe it's just word play?

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Re: Domestic Helper going overseas on day off

Postby x9200 » Mon, 06 Jul 2015 7:54 pm

Even so, losing the deposit is not going to happen because the maid goes abroad. In fact it will happen because of something opposite - inability of the employer to prove she left Singapore. So again back to the original point, there is nothing specific/vicious/illegal in the fact the maid crossed the border. If we tell the maid not to do it or report such trips (for our, not her safety reasons) it would be just logical to set some other questionable rules like not meeting any males alone. The risk of her developing a relationship and getting pregnant is probably higher than her disappearing abroad.

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Re: Domestic Helper going overseas on day off

Postby zzm9980 » Tue, 07 Jul 2015 11:29 am

x9200 wrote: In fact it will happen because of something opposite - inability of the employer to prove she left Singapore.



And that should be easy, as ICA should know this. Unless she is Mas Selamat. :cool:


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