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Lee Kuan Yew

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Re: Lee Kuan Yew

Postby JR8 » Sat, 28 Mar 2015 11:52 pm

x9200 wrote: For example: in the Western democracy it is formally acceptable that because of some loopholes in the legal system a person, who beyond any reasonable doubts murdered somebody and will do it once and once again, gets away and kills some few equally innocent members of the society. For me, this sort of construct is a pure hypocrisy. Personally, I'd rather see the murderer detained violating his rights than some more people murdered.
Now, I realize this is not a perfect analogy but nevertheless this is a very similar mechanism. Nothing is perfect. Solutions vary.


I'm not sure who finds it 'acceptable'. You might have a trial judged upon the evidence, and the evidence being insufficient to reach a decision, and that 'letting-off'/release later considered erroneous; but the alternative? Locking up people without a judicial process and a fair trial, 'just coz you think they maybe did it'? Tyranny ripe for abuse, surely?

Trial by jury, innocent until proven guilty etc isn't perfect, but I'd rather live under that system than any other.

p.s. 'Personally, I'd rather see the murderer' > 'Personally, I'd rather see the alleged murderer', etc. The leap of words is striking.
'Do it or do not do it: You will regret both' - Kierkegaard

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Re: Lee Kuan Yew

Postby ecureilx » Sun, 29 Mar 2015 12:43 am

JR8 wrote:Trial by jury, innocent until proven guilty etc isn't perfect, but I'd rather live under that system than any other.


The system, trial by jury, innocent till proven guilty, in my narrow opinion, is fine when you are the accused. When you are the victim and you see a fair number of criminals going scot free, that does wonders to your belief of fair justice !

JR8 wrote:p.s. 'Personally, I'd rather see the murderer' > 'Personally, I'd rather see the alleged murderer', etc. The leap of words is striking.


Well, fyi, a snippet on a communism 'revolution', in Asian context !

..the Maoists began to terrorise both the state machinery and those sections of civil society opposed to its thinking and almost brought the state to its knees. Organised in cells of three people the Maoists murdered probably thousands of people and crippled the country with violently-enforced general strikes for two years. Government forces captured and killed the leader and his deputy in 1989; by early 1990 they had killed or imprisoned the remaining politburo and detained an estimated 7,000 members. Although the government won a decisive military victory, there were credible accusations of brutality and extrajudicial methods. .

What happened during the course of the 'revolution' was, none of the leaders could be implicated, and they maintained a strict cell system, and most of the killed revolutionaries were teens, brain washed.

Now it was like everybody knew who the 'alleged' leaders are, but they couldn't be brought to justice, because they kept evidence to nearly NIL.

How would you handle such a situation ? With "ALLEGED" mass murderers walking around, with not a worry in the world ..

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Re: Lee Kuan Yew

Postby JR8 » Sun, 29 Mar 2015 1:52 am

I wouldn't enter into a pact with them in order to gain power, and then immediately seek to destroy/exile them once I had that power.

.... Mebbe I haven't the requisite killer-instinct required to 'found a nation'. And indeed I know, and I'd positively hope, that I haven't.

Such a realm is not the place to require 'the ordinary man', neither do such people go down in history. Look at the individuals who have demarcated the key points in the history of say the last couple of centuries, and who do you admire from amongst them... QED?
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Re: Lee Kuan Yew

Postby x9200 » Sun, 29 Mar 2015 11:03 am

JR8 wrote:
x9200 wrote: For example: in the Western democracy it is formally acceptable that because of some loopholes in the legal system a person, who beyond any reasonable doubts murdered somebody and will do it once and once again, gets away and kills some few equally innocent members of the society. For me, this sort of construct is a pure hypocrisy. Personally, I'd rather see the murderer detained violating his rights than some more people murdered.
Now, I realize this is not a perfect analogy but nevertheless this is a very similar mechanism. Nothing is perfect. Solutions vary.


I'm not sure who finds it 'acceptable'. You might have a trial judged upon the evidence, and the evidence being insufficient to reach a decision, and that 'letting-off'/release later considered erroneous; but the alternative? Locking up people without a judicial process and a fair trial, 'just coz you think they maybe did it'? Tyranny ripe for abuse, surely?
Oh, I see, it's like North Korea and Singaporeans queuing for a few hours each day to pay respect to LKY are just afraid to be jailed or executed. Tyranny?
"Mistakes" happen all the time in all the Western (and other) countries. They are unavoidable. Apparently it is formally (you missed this word) acceptable as there is no better solution based on the Western democracy principles. How it is handled (all the processing rituals) is just some SOP based on some logic and social agreement. This does not make the process fair and fault-proof.

JR8 wrote:Trial by jury, innocent until proven guilty etc isn't perfect, but I'd rather live under that system than any other.

That's the whole issue of people living in one system and being uber convinced this is the only right and acceptable way. What is acceptable or not is largely based on the environment inside one was brought up.
Image

JR8 wrote:p.s. 'Personally, I'd rather see the murderer' > 'Personally, I'd rather see the alleged murderer', etc. The leap of words is striking.

Alleged, as of the formal requirement but often defying common sense.
Example from my country, fully Western democratic approach, just some mistakes resulting from the complexity of the legal system while being transformed to fit to the one of EU.

At one point the capital punishment was removed from the penal code and replaced by a prison term. All who queued up to be hanged were given 25 years in prison. Now, some of the convicted murderers already served it. Among them there was a pedophile who killed 3 teenagers and openly declared to some people (i.e. journalists) that he did not change his habits. Also the prison staff confirmed about his tendencies very much still alive. You could not force him to go under professional psychiatric evaluation needed to detain him again and placed in a hospital and he served his term. He was a free person with full rights restored.

You think it is not that common (leaving aside that the frequency does not justify anything)? Think what happens when Breivik will have his 21y term completed.

So this is one of the cases where "just coz you think they maybe going to do it again". I am very sure you would show your trust in a Western democratic legal system and let him be your neighbor.

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Re: Lee Kuan Yew

Postby JR8 » Sun, 29 Mar 2015 2:22 pm

You raise some thought provoking points, but I'm not really at ease discussing them under this subject title; esp as the topic has shifted (for me) and no longer relates to SG.

If it's cut/moved then cool, if not... then maybe one day over some kielbasa and Zywiec :wink: :)

(Are there any notable Polish restaurants here in SG, I have 'a thing' for Central European sausage!?)
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Re: Lee Kuan Yew

Postby x9200 » Mon, 30 Mar 2015 12:47 pm

Fair enough. Not the best time to criticize him if this was to come into this discussion.
Me, just wanted to say that what sometimes may appear white or black for other people could be a shade of a color and nothing closely that extreme. Also, ultimately this short discussion was on LKY and I did not intend to generalize. I simply believe even if some ruling are more in nature authoritarian, given the right person, who is wise, generally fair and wants all good to his country could be more effective and better for the society. I believe LKY was such a person for Singapore. Western democracy, with all its unquestionable benefits have this intrinsic problem of being impotent in solving some issues especially if time and lack of other resources are a factor.

(I am afraid the closes what gets to Polish cuisine in Singapore is the German Market Place at Bukit Timah but for the sausages there is nothing coming even close to it any place around).

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Re: Lee Kuan Yew

Postby JR8 » Mon, 30 Mar 2015 1:56 pm

Fair enough too, and I agree.

German Market Place. At first I thought this might be a notably Germanic branch of the MarketPlace chain, but it's not it's a stand-alone shop. It's amazing how despite the time one spends here, there are still relevant/useful resources that one remains completely oblivious to. Wait until I tell 'Frau JR8', I expect she'll be as surprised as I am! :)

A Google-search returned this... http://tinksgoesgermany.blogspot.sg/200 ... in-sg.html

The shop also seems to have a Facebook page, that I haven't checked out yet > https://www.facebook.com/GermanMarketPlace
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Re: Lee Kuan Yew

Postby martincymru » Mon, 30 Mar 2015 2:08 pm

Let's all have a debate ....... whoops, sorry, not allowed.

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Re: Lee Kuan Yew

Postby x9200 » Mon, 30 Mar 2015 2:34 pm

JR8 wrote:Fair enough too, and I agree.

German Market Place. At first I thought this might be a notably Germanic branch of the MarketPlace chain, but it's not it's a stand-alone shop. It's amazing how despite the time one spends here, there are still relevant/useful resources that one remains completely oblivious to. Wait until I tell 'Frau JR8', I expect she'll be as surprised as I am! :)

A Google-search returned this... http://tinksgoesgermany.blogspot.sg/200 ... in-sg.html

The shop also seems to have a Facebook page, that I haven't checked out yet > https://www.facebook.com/GermanMarketPlace


Their choice is obviously limited, it's just a small shop, but they have some stuff impossible to find elsewhere in Singapore:

Rollmops
Image

Dr Oetker's products
Image

Some very good canned chickpea soups.
Jacobs Kronung coffee beans that I prefer to anything I could buy in the other places (CS, Starbucks, Coffee Bean Leaf).

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Re: Lee Kuan Yew

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Mon, 30 Mar 2015 3:46 pm

Rollmops can be found in Ikea, or at least several versions of pickled herring. Occasionally can find rollmops in Cold Storage around the Christmas holiday season as well. I love pickled herring!

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Re: Lee Kuan Yew

Postby x9200 » Mon, 30 Mar 2015 5:49 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:Rollmops can be found in Ikea, or at least several versions of pickled herring. Occasionally can find rollmops in Cold Storage around the Christmas holiday season as well. I love pickled herring!

Swedes seem to have their herrings in less acidic and more sweet, heavy marinate. I've never seen any rollmops in Ikea. Will keep an eye on it.

The German store rollmops are based on the classic bismarck herring recipe. Also they normally have just pickled ones like this:

Image

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Re: Lee Kuan Yew

Postby ecureilx » Mon, 30 Mar 2015 8:05 pm

martincymru wrote:Let's all have a debate ....... whoops, sorry, not allowed.



As long as it is not slandering anybody or against religion or race, nothing stops anybody from debating

The reason I see why more than a few opposition were sued is because they tried stunts to win sympathy votes not knowing that accusing somebody of something without facts or imaginary statistics is slandering.

Or did I miss something ?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?gl=SG&hl=en ... 6NTRAOaIwU

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Re: Lee Kuan Yew

Postby the lynx » Tue, 31 Mar 2015 2:26 pm

Very good read.

http://thecrazyangmoandhisangrywife.blogspot.sg/2015/03/the-harder-truth.html?spref=fb

One day, there was a live telecast of Mr Lee Kuan Yew on TV getting a public confession from the political detainees including Dad. A journalist visited Mum and I and made us sit next to the TV. I could not remember much of that apart from waking up the next day with a picture of myself in my pyjamas, and a quote from an 8 year old me saying, “Daddy was very naughty.” Looking back, that was probably the beginning of my training as a Communications and PR professional. I never trusted the media ever since, and I hated the establishment even more for turning my family’s life into a circus. I grew up bearing that anger in my heart.


However, living through the last 4 decades where I saw how Singapore had evolved to what it has become today, where there are roofs over our heads, we feel safe when we walk the streets and our children have a good head-start in life with sound education, and the medical bills of our ageing population is heavily subsidized, I realized that Mr Lee had to do what he had to do at that time for the good of our nation. Sure, some of his policies were unpopular and my family was a victim of it, but as a child of Singapore having lived through the economic growth and political stability of the 70s through to today when I see my parents enjoying the benefits of the Pioneer Generation package, I cannot help but have to admit that the man had truly done a great job.

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Re: Lee Kuan Yew

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Tue, 31 Mar 2015 4:20 pm

I read that earlier today. Interesting read I agree.

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Re: Lee Kuan Yew

Postby ecureilx » Tue, 31 Mar 2015 5:44 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:I read that earlier today. Interesting read I agree.


Emotional reading, to say the least ..


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