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Lee Kuan Yew

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Re: Lee Kuan Yew

Postby Barnsley » Wed, 25 Mar 2015 3:04 pm

nakatago wrote:With all these criticisms and acts of defiance, it's safe to say the that LKY's love and dedication to Singapore was never in doubt. Agree or disagree with his decisions, he did what he did because he truly believed those were the best courses of action at the time.


With not any semblance of opposition it would seem.

They say that benevolent dictatorship could well be the best form o Government.

How LKY's legacy is viewed will be how Singapore goes in the the future , was the long term future of Singapore sacrificed on the altar of short term gain?
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Re: Lee Kuan Yew

Postby rajagainstthemachine » Wed, 25 Mar 2015 3:07 pm

June 25, 1960
New employment law in Singapore
http://www.thehindu.com/news/internatio ... 946005.ece



Lee Kuan Yew - May 16 1969
V. T. Sambandan < - is the same person who has a road named after him in Malaysia?

http://www.thehindu.com/news/internatio ... 946028.ece
To get there early is on time and showing up on time is late

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Re: Lee Kuan Yew

Postby ecureilx » Wed, 25 Mar 2015 6:55 pm

rajagainstthemachine wrote:June 25, 1960
New employment law in Singapore
http://www.thehindu.com/news/internatio ... 946005.ece



Lee Kuan Yew - May 16 1969
V. T. Sambandan < - is the same person who has a road named after him in Malaysia?

http://www.thehindu.com/news/internatio ... 946028.ece

About the citizenship thing I met a hair dresser who was cursing his father for not taking up Sc when the govt was giving it so easily. .. though the children were all born in Singapore

Now the son is on work permit

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Re: Lee Kuan Yew

Postby x9200 » Wed, 25 Mar 2015 9:13 pm

Barnsley wrote:
nakatago wrote:With all these criticisms and acts of defiance, it's safe to say the that LKY's love and dedication to Singapore was never in doubt. Agree or disagree with his decisions, he did what he did because he truly believed those were the best courses of action at the time.


With not any semblance of opposition it would seem.

They say that benevolent dictatorship could well be the best form o Government.

How LKY's legacy is viewed will be how Singapore goes in the the future , was the long term future of Singapore sacrificed on the altar of short term gain?
I don't think so. It had to be realized very early that this "benevolent dictatorship" was exactly to achieve some shorter term but important goals. It was IMHO namely to build stable and reasonably robust foundations (wealth and socio-ethnic balance/coexistence).

This was achieved and now people start to look beyond fulfillment of their basic needs so it's probably about time to start another phase. The problem is, this other phase may be similarly challenging to the first one, but at least, now there is a buffer that should prevent Singapore from falling apart.

There is nothing like a true democracy and the Western model is not really universal. Many things can go very wrong to mention the majority of the Arab Spring countries so IMHO Singapore had it so far probably the best possible way.

My 4.8 cents.

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Re: Lee Kuan Yew

Postby nakatago » Thu, 26 Mar 2015 5:48 am

Barnsley wrote:
nakatago wrote:With all these criticisms and acts of defiance, it's safe to say the that LKY's love and dedication to Singapore was never in doubt. Agree or disagree with his decisions, he did what he did because he truly believed those were the best courses of action at the time.


With not any semblance of opposition it would seem.

They say that benevolent dictatorship could well be the best form o Government.

How LKY's legacy is viewed will be how Singapore goes in the the future , was the long term future of Singapore sacrificed on the altar of short term gain?


One man's dedication and his beliefs are one thing...

...whether they were objectively, truly, undoubtedly the best courses of action is another thing.

You can't and wouldn't be able to fault the guy for loving the Singapore. I think we can all agree on that. However, if that love had always resulted in the best possible outcome would always be up for debate--this is what everyone and their economist would debate upon.

A benevolent dictatorship only works during times of crisis, when shit needs to get done right away and you'd trust one person's judgement to be right for things that matter right then and there. But when it comes to things in the long term, you gotta take the time to think things through, ask dissenting voices what they think because one side doesn't always see everything. Everyone has a blind side--no matter how brilliant or how benevolent they may be.

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Re: Lee Kuan Yew

Postby Barnsley » Thu, 26 Mar 2015 10:07 am

nakatago wrote:
Barnsley wrote:
nakatago wrote:With all these criticisms and acts of defiance, it's safe to say the that LKY's love and dedication to Singapore was never in doubt. Agree or disagree with his decisions, he did what he did because he truly believed those were the best courses of action at the time.


With not any semblance of opposition it would seem.

They say that benevolent dictatorship could well be the best form o Government.

How LKY's legacy is viewed will be how Singapore goes in the the future , was the long term future of Singapore sacrificed on the altar of short term gain?


One man's dedication and his beliefs are one thing...

...whether they were objectively, truly, undoubtedly the best courses of action is another thing.

You can't and wouldn't be able to fault the guy for loving the Singapore. I think we can all agree on that. However, if that love had always resulted in the best possible outcome would always be up for debate--this is what everyone and their economist would debate upon.

A benevolent dictatorship only works during times of crisis, when shit needs to get done right away and you'd trust one person's judgement to be right for things that matter right then and there. But when it comes to things in the long term, you gotta take the time to think things through, ask dissenting voices what they think because one side doesn't always see everything. Everyone has a blind side--no matter how brilliant or how benevolent they may be.


Well put!

And as X9200 has said , the next phase is the critical one for longevity , though I do have doubts on the buffer that Singapore has created to give it time to transition. Time is something that they probably dont have, the world is moving fast .......
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Re: Lee Kuan Yew

Postby GSM8 » Thu, 26 Mar 2015 10:39 am

True, but every style of functioning will have its detractors and every approach its drawbacks. If all roads lead to Rome, there is more than one way of getting to Rome. Some leaders had great ideals (Mahatma Gandhi and Nelson Mandela come to mind from modern times), some had vision (e.g. Deng Xiaoping and Mandela), and some excelled in execution (say, Deng, Thatcher and Bill Clinton). Some even had 2 of the 3 capacities. But I can't think of anyone other than LKY who combined all three so effectively. Respect to Mr. Lee Kuan Yew

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Re: Lee Kuan Yew

Postby Barnsley » Thu, 26 Mar 2015 11:17 am

GSM8 wrote:True, but every style of functioning will have its detractors and every approach its drawbacks. If all roads lead to Rome, there is more than one way of getting to Rome. Some leaders had great ideals (Mahatma Gandhi and Nelson Mandela come to mind from modern times), some had vision (e.g. Deng Xiaoping and Mandela), and some excelled in execution (say, Deng, Thatcher and Bill Clinton). Some even had 2 of the 3 capacities. But I can't think of anyone other than LKY who combined all three so effectively. Respect to Mr. Lee Kuan Yew


It all depends on one's perspective.

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

I am pretty sure every politician would claim to have all three of things you state.
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Re: Lee Kuan Yew

Postby ecureilx » Thu, 26 Mar 2015 6:09 pm

Barnsley wrote:
GSM8 wrote:True, but every style of functioning will have its detractors and every approach its drawbacks. If all roads lead to Rome, there is more than one way of getting to Rome. Some leaders had great ideals (Mahatma Gandhi and Nelson Mandela come to mind from modern times), some had vision (e.g. Deng Xiaoping and Mandela), and some excelled in execution (say, Deng, Thatcher and Bill Clinton). Some even had 2 of the 3 capacities. But I can't think of anyone other than LKY who combined all three so effectively. Respect to Mr. Lee Kuan Yew


It all depends on one's perspective.

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

I am pretty sure every politician would claim to have all three of things you state.

Atleast in Singapore nobody vanished ... or got blown to bits ...

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Re: Lee Kuan Yew

Postby ecureilx » Fri, 27 Mar 2015 10:10 pm

so today, I accompanied my charges to Botanical Garden, for Tribute to LKY

And was more than amazed to see a dozen or so kids running around, barefoot, for an Easter Egg Hunt in progress :( :(

I believe it was previously planned programme, and amidst the lines of mourners, kids dashing ... not the fault of the kids though !!

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Re: Lee Kuan Yew

Postby Barnsley » Sat, 28 Mar 2015 12:09 pm

ecureilx wrote:
Barnsley wrote:
GSM8 wrote:True, but every style of functioning will have its detractors and every approach its drawbacks. If all roads lead to Rome, there is more than one way of getting to Rome. Some leaders had great ideals (Mahatma Gandhi and Nelson Mandela come to mind from modern times), some had vision (e.g. Deng Xiaoping and Mandela), and some excelled in execution (say, Deng, Thatcher and Bill Clinton). Some even had 2 of the 3 capacities. But I can't think of anyone other than LKY who combined all three so effectively. Respect to Mr. Lee Kuan Yew


It all depends on one's perspective.

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

I am pretty sure every politician would claim to have all three of things you state.

Atleast in Singapore nobody vanished ... or got blown to bits ...


Detention without trial count?
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Re: Lee Kuan Yew

Postby Sporkin » Sat, 28 Mar 2015 12:27 pm

Not as discreetly as disappearing with black bags over their heads in the dead of night, but
rather with application of judicial force.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Coldstore

ecureilx wrote:
Barnsley wrote:
GSM8 wrote:True, but every style of functioning will have its detractors and every approach its drawbacks. If all roads lead to Rome, there is more than one way of getting to Rome. Some leaders had great ideals (Mahatma Gandhi and Nelson Mandela come to mind from modern times), some had vision (e.g. Deng Xiaoping and Mandela), and some excelled in execution (say, Deng, Thatcher and Bill Clinton). Some even had 2 of the 3 capacities. But I can't think of anyone other than LKY who combined all three so effectively. Respect to Mr. Lee Kuan Yew


It all depends on one's perspective.

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

I am pretty sure every politician would claim to have all three of things you state.

Atleast in Singapore nobody vanished ... or got blown to bits ...

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Re: Lee Kuan Yew

Postby x9200 » Sat, 28 Mar 2015 4:05 pm

Barnsley wrote:
ecureilx wrote:Atleast in Singapore nobody vanished ... or got blown to bits ...


Detention without trial count?

I don't know too many details. Probably nobody does but it is always about sacrificing "a lesser good" for one subjectively or pragmatically more important.

For example: in the Western democracy it is formally acceptable that because of some loopholes in the legal system a person, who beyond any reasonable doubts murdered somebody and will do it once and once again, gets away and kills some few equally innocent members of the society. For me, this sort of construct is a pure hypocrisy. Personally, I'd rather see the murderer detained violating his rights than some more people murdered.

Now, I realize this is not a perfect analogy but nevertheless this is a very similar mechanism. Nothing is perfect. Solutions vary.

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Re: Lee Kuan Yew

Postby ecureilx » Sat, 28 Mar 2015 6:57 pm

x9200 wrote:.

For example: in the Western democracy it is formally acceptable that because of some loopholes in the legal system a person, who beyond any reasonable doubts murdered somebody and will do it once and once again, gets away and kills some few equally innocent members of the society. For me, this sort of construct is a pure hypocrisy. Personally, I'd rather see the murderer detained violating his rights than some more people murdered.

Now, I realize this is not a perfect analogy but nevertheless this is a very similar mechanism. Nothing is perfect. Solutions vary.



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Re: Lee Kuan Yew

Postby ecureilx » Sat, 28 Mar 2015 9:40 pm

for those quoting operation cold store, I would say that is lame

The communinists/maoists, didn't go around preaching with a soft touch, instead were resorting to killings, and burning alive of those who opposed them, and public hangings, and until recently it was happening, by the Naxals and some Mao groups, and still do, on top of burning down public property, killing government servants etc.

And the govts that were forced to confront those put down the commies by generous use of C4, planted weapons leading to fake shoot outs/encounters, necklacing (which was the norm in a country as recent as 1989), and simple disappearance without a trace, feeding of the dead body to the crabs till there is no evidence left, or when there are too many to count, just simple burial alive.

Unless you been there, or been near there, where a family member not returning home leads to serious panic and you can't go to the cops as most likely it wold have been the cops who picked up the family member on suspicion, or suddenly when there phones/tv/radio go offline, you have no clue who is doing what - try living like that.

So those who think the thought that those Commies would have had it all fun and joy may be right, or pretty wrong, and it may have been right to err on the side of caution.

Oh, did I forget that MM Lee didn't resort to rendition and water boarding and such ? maybe those would have been more humane that locking up the suspects.

sorry if all of the above is totally off-topic !


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