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Descaling a coffee machine (Nespresso etc)

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Re: Descaling a coffee machine (Nespresso etc)

Postby nakatago » Wed, 11 Mar 2015 7:24 am

maneo wrote:

Found out that white vinegar was not so "readily available" here (when I went looking for it to use in a water feature to prevent slime).



Really?! (Not being sarcastic).

Just walk into a ShengSiong or FairPrice and grab the cheapest white vinegar bottle you can find.

Like so: http://www.fairprice.com.sg/webapp/wcs/ ... ogId=10051

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Re: Descaling a coffee machine (Nespresso etc)

Postby maneo » Wed, 11 Mar 2015 7:41 am

nakatago wrote:
maneo wrote:
Found out that white vinegar was not so "readily available" here (when I went looking for it to use in a water feature to prevent slime).


Really?! (Not being sarcastic).

Just walk into a ShengSiong or FairPrice and grab the cheapest white vinegar bottle you can find.

Like so: http://www.fairprice.com.sg/webapp/wcs/ ... ogId=10051

Things have changed since when I first looked for it several years ago.
I think I had to go to a Cold Storage to find some Heinz white vinegar (in a glass bottle) back then.

Am seeing white vinegar more often now, especially artificial vinegar (which is considered halal since there's no alcohol intermediary in its production).
Last edited by maneo on Wed, 11 Mar 2015 7:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Descaling a coffee machine (Nespresso etc)

Postby JR8 » Wed, 11 Mar 2015 7:46 am

maneo wrote:Found out that white vinegar was not so "readily available" here (when I went looking for it to use in a water feature to prevent slime). However, have since discovered that Mustafa's has quite a selection, especially for the cheaper artificial vinegar.


My local NTUC has plenty of artificial vinegar, and distilled (white) malt vinegar. Plus a whole bunch of other kinds I wouldn't use for cleaning.

Simples.
'Do it or do not do it: You will regret both' - Kierkegaard

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Re: Descaling a coffee machine (Nespresso etc)

Postby nakatago » Wed, 11 Mar 2015 12:31 pm

maneo wrote:Am seeing white vinegar more often now, especially artificial vinegar (which is considered halal since there's no alcohol intermediary in its production).


It's been a long while since I knew my organic chemistry reactions but technically, producing acetic acid would always go through producing ethanol first.* I think there's another route but that seems more complicated for an industrial process.

Maybe they just go through a process where almost all of intermediary ethanol is oxidized into acetic acid.
:-k

Sounds legit. :P :mrgreen:

* what we jokingly called a back-side attack because, innuendo.

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Re: Descaling a coffee machine (Nespresso etc)

Postby maneo » Thu, 12 Mar 2015 10:55 pm

nakatago wrote:
maneo wrote:Am seeing white vinegar more often now, especially artificial vinegar (which is considered halal since there's no alcohol intermediary in its production).


It's been a long while since I knew my organic chemistry reactions but technically, producing acetic acid would always go through producing ethanol first.* I think there's another route but that seems more complicated for an industrial process.

Maybe they just go through a process where almost all of intermediary ethanol is oxidized into acetic acid.
:-k

Sounds legit. :P :mrgreen:

* what we jokingly called a back-side attack because, innuendo.

Hmmm -- another sloppy omission.
It seems I should have said "no fermented alcohol intermediary."
Synthetic (artificial) vinegar is made from synthetic (rather than fermented) ethanol, synthesized from natural gas or petroleum deriviatives (yummy :roll: ).

As for industrial acetic acid (i.e. used for chemical applications) most is made using carbonylation of methanol instead of ethanol:

CH3OH + CO → CH3COOH


Who'd have thought such a simple musing about cleaning with vinegar would result in 4 pages and so much discussion of chemistry.

Perhaps this thread should be dedicated to the memory of ksl.

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Re: Descaling a coffee machine (Nespresso etc)

Postby ecureilx » Fri, 13 Mar 2015 1:16 am

maneo wrote:Who'd have thought such a simple musing about cleaning with vinegar would result in 4 pages and so much discussion of chemistry.

Perhaps this thread should be dedicated to the memory of ksl.


And his Drinking Vinegar !!!! =D> =D>

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Re: Descaling a coffee machine (Nespresso etc)

Postby x9200 » Fri, 13 Mar 2015 4:56 am

maneo wrote:It seems I should have said "no fermented alcohol intermediary."
Synthetic (artificial) vinegar is made from synthetic (rather than fermented) ethanol, synthesized from natural gas or petroleum deriviatives (yummy :roll: ).

Interesting. So is this specific fermentation leading to ethanol the devil? But AFAIK, (e.g.) standard bread is(may be) halal - it is rather the fat used that may be of concern. Surely part of the process is the fermentation where the ethanol is released.

Nb. there are also some bacterial strains able to do the job from sugars directly to AA without the ethanol intermediate.

maneo wrote:Perhaps this thread should be dedicated to the memory of ksl.

I thought of him too.

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Re: Descaling a coffee machine (Nespresso etc)

Postby nakatago » Fri, 13 Mar 2015 5:38 am

x9200 wrote:
maneo wrote:It seems I should have said "no fermented alcohol intermediary."
Synthetic (artificial) vinegar is made from synthetic (rather than fermented) ethanol, synthesized from natural gas or petroleum deriviatives (yummy :roll: ).

Interesting. So is this specific fermentation leading to ethanol the devil? But AFAIK, (e.g.) standard bread is(may be) halal - it is rather the fat used that may be of concern. Surely part of the process is the fermentation where the ethanol is released.

Nb. there are also some bacterial strains able to do the job from sugars directly to AA without the ethanol intermediate.

maneo wrote:Perhaps this thread should be dedicated to the memory of ksl.

I thought of him too.


Not familiar with the halal certification process but maybe "look! alcohol concentration in our vats is so small is negligible!" I seriously doubt an auditor would go, "hey....are you just oxidizing the alcohol in there?! I'm not born yesterday, you know..."

Yeah, all this talk of vinegar and the memory of ksl is lingering at the back of my head.

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Re: Descaling a coffee machine (Nespresso etc)

Postby x9200 » Fri, 13 Mar 2015 7:24 am

I don't know too much about it neither, but what is considered for being halal or not looks like pretty in depth thing:

http://www.muslimconsumergroup.com/fiqah_science.html

This is on yeast:
The scientific argument is that the brewer's yeast is still alive during beer making and still need foodstuff to survive. The foodstuff is contaminated with by- product of fermentation for example beer flavoring compounds and others. Every ingredients or component of Khamer or alcoholic fermentation or wine or beer is considered Haram. By-products of beer diffuse into brewer's yeast cells along with its food stuff. Its foodstuff is contaminated with beer fermentation by-products. There is no literature available that brewer's yeast cell membrane prevents diffusion of beer alcoholic by-products. In order for Brewer's cells from beer making to be Halal those beer alcoholic fermentation by- products has to be changes to new chemicals according to Senior Islamic Scholar from Jamaya Nizamia , Hyderabad, India other wise the brewer's yeast cells from beer making are not considered Halal. Again there is no scientific information available to indicate these beer fermentation by-products are subject to chemical change (Tabdeele Mahiya).

I can understand the concept where the same component is good or bad based on the process it was created but I still miss what makes some stuff haram while some not (the said bread for example).

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Re: Descaling a coffee machine (Nespresso etc)

Postby nakatago » Fri, 13 Mar 2015 8:44 am

x9200 wrote:I still miss what makes some stuff haram while some not (the said bread for example).


We're talking about religious doctrine here... :???:

So, yeah, I can't blame you.

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Re: Descaling a coffee machine (Nespresso etc)

Postby x9200 » Fri, 13 Mar 2015 9:56 am

nakatago wrote:
x9200 wrote:I still miss what makes some stuff haram while some not (the said bread for example).


We're talking about religious doctrine here... :???:

So, yeah, I can't blame you.

Not necessary a religious doctrine. It could be just ethics. Do you care if your android phone or shirt is made by 9-12yo children being exploited in their countries? Probably you do so you have such doctrine also in place. Everybody has it regardless an atheist, agnostic or a fanatic believer.
People short of it are called (socio/psycho)paths.

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Re: Descaling a coffee machine (Nespresso etc)

Postby nakatago » Fri, 13 Mar 2015 11:01 am

x9200 wrote:
nakatago wrote:
x9200 wrote:I still miss what makes some stuff haram while some not (the said bread for example).


We're talking about religious doctrine here... :???:

So, yeah, I can't blame you.

Not necessary a religious doctrine. It could be just ethics. Do you care if your android phone or shirt is made by 9-12yo children being exploited in their countries? Probably you do so you have such doctrine also in place. Everybody has it regardless an atheist, agnostic or a fanatic believer.
People short of it are called (socio/psycho)paths.


Ḥarām (/ˈhɛərəmˌˈhær-/; Arabic: حَرَام‎ ḥarām) or Haraam is an Arabic term meaning sinful. In Islamic jurisprudence, haram is used to refer to any act that is forbidden by Allah, and is one of five Islamic commandments (الأحكام الخمسة (al-ahkam al-khamsah)) that define the morality of human action.[1] Acts that are haram are typically prohibited in the religious texts of the Quran and the Sunnah. The category of haram is the highest status of prohibition. Islam teaches that a haram (sinful) act is recorded by an angel on the person's left shoulder.[2] If something is considered haram, it remains prohibited no matter how good the intention is or how honorable the purpose is.[3] A haram is converted into a gravitational force on the day of judgment and placed on mizan (weighing scales).[4][5] Views of different madhabs can vary significantly regarding what is or is not haram.[6]


Sounds pretty religious to me. Just to be sure, our context is artificial vinegar that is halal-certified, right?

About ethics, there are products that are certified to be conflict-free, fair trade and all that. But that's a totally different tract already.

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Re: Descaling a coffee machine (Nespresso etc)

Postby x9200 » Fri, 13 Mar 2015 11:38 am

What I wrote was this: I can understand the concept where the same component is good or bad based on the process it was created..

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Re: Descaling a coffee machine (Nespresso etc)

Postby nakatago » Fri, 13 Mar 2015 11:56 am

x9200 wrote:What I wrote was this: I can understand the concept where the same component is good or bad based on the process it was created..


ah, I was commenting on only the haram part.

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Re: Descaling a coffee machine (Nespresso etc)

Postby rajagainstthemachine » Fri, 13 Mar 2015 11:32 pm

Once upon a time there was a man (JR8 in this case) who was taking an elephant to bathe in the river. On his way he was accosted by four blind men who asked him where he was going and so he told them.
The four blind men proceeded to describe the elephant in four different ways and reached their own conclusions about said elephant and began to squabble, each was right in his own way but the collective dissonance led the mahout to abandon elephant and seek greener pastures.
And that's how the story generally ends in most threads here.
To get there early is on time and showing up on time is late


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