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PR approved, but I don't need it anymore WTF!!!???

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ecureilx
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Re: PR approved, but I don't need it anymore WTF!!!???

Postby ecureilx » Fri, 13 Feb 2015 9:43 pm

Sergei82 wrote: ...


On a lighter note .. do you still have to go to Darul Arqam ????

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Re: PR approved, but I don't need it anymore WTF!!!???

Postby JR8 » Fri, 13 Feb 2015 9:51 pm

x9200 wrote:I am afraid it would empower nobody. You can not be a shrink for yourself and in a relation, where people are emotionally engaged, the judgment is never purely analytical (as of DSM or similar).


But the DSM is the basis of a formal professional clinical diagnosis, right? AFAIUI a person can be 'sectioned' to a secure hospital on the basis of it's scorings. Serious stuff then. It's not a bible for the non-professional, but it can suggest directions to consider further.

x9200 wrote:People stay in toxic relationships despite of seeing and acknowledging the obvious. It is not that they can not see it because they are not educated.


Of course, not all leave. There is a varying element of co-dependency. This is one reason for the fight, separate, make up, repeat, repeat, repeat, Groundhog Day that some people seem to end up in. Surely better to have even some basic idea of the conditions that sometimes cause it before you're unlucky enough to encounter any, rather than it remaining taboo and whispered by people behind closed doors, or 'qualified medical professionals' only*. There are plenty of online self-diagnoses websites. The NHS in the UK has one ('NHSDirect'). It's very broad but naturally it only goes so far, but better to have some knowledge, pointers, and recommendations re: a condition, than to be left completely in the dark.


Edit to add: two examples, one medical one legal. Fictionalised to an extent, but based upon fact where 'little people' encroached on 'professional territory', and demonstrated that where there is a will, there is empowerment.
- Erin Brokowich - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erin_Brockovich_(film)
- Lorenzo's Oil - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorenzos_oil

Similar to some 'lesser courts', Small Claims (here and elsewhere), the London property tribunal ('LVT') etc., where the Plaintiff is positively discouraged from engaging legal counsel to represent them. How the legal profession must despise that.... lol :cool:
Last edited by JR8 on Fri, 13 Feb 2015 11:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: PR approved, but I don't need it anymore WTF!!!???

Postby Wd40 » Fri, 13 Feb 2015 10:52 pm

Addadude wrote:Dammit Sergei, you've packed more into one year than most of us experience in 20!

If it's any comfort, somewhere a sub-continental masters holder (from a reputed university) is insanely jealous of you right now...


Jealous because we didnt get PR or because we can't divorce our wives as easily? :-# :-$ :mrgreen:

To be honest, all this while I was under the impression that your comment was referring to the fact that Indians endure through our marriages. Its only now, after a couple of drinks I realized, the main essence of this topic is the PR approval and what to do with it, and not so much about the divorce. Although most comments here, are concentrated on the divorce aspect, so I can't be blamed :)

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Re: PR approved, but I don't need it anymore WTF!!!???

Postby PNGMK » Sat, 14 Feb 2015 9:19 am

Sergei - re Muslim divorce - it's easier with a Malay lawyer. I know one if you need one - PM me.

He did a great job and can handle 99% of it remotely apart from the actual appearance for you.
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Re: PR approved, but I don't need it anymore WTF!!!???

Postby Sergei82 » Sat, 14 Feb 2015 9:47 am

ecureilx, I had to go only once - pre-divorce counseling (arranged a separate session so not to see HER). Their primary concern was: will I give up Islam because of my wife? I answered them that my wife is not an indicator of anything in Islam (which is true!) and I don't make decisions like that because of my wife. On that grounds nobody antagonized me there, I didn't antagonize anyone as well - we just talked, they didn't even feel like convincing me to stay in that marriage for longer (which is contradicting Islamic values, but the situation is like almost nothing (if art all) attributed to marriage happened in our "family" so far, at least from HER side).

PNGMK, they charge quite heavy. One asked sgd $4000. I can pay it, but yet not very comfortable - not sure yet how much will I spend on relocation, house deposit in HK. The company is not paying for relocation since I'm their external hire, its just higher salary (which is good). I'm not sure if the benefit of the lawyer in this marriage - so short! (7.5 months to the point of desertion)

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Re: PR approved, but I don't need it anymore WTF!!!???

Postby x9200 » Sat, 14 Feb 2015 11:28 am

JR8 wrote:
x9200 wrote:I am afraid it would empower nobody. You can not be a shrink for yourself and in a relation, where people are emotionally engaged, the judgment is never purely analytical (as of DSM or similar).


But the DSM is the basis of a formal professional clinical diagnosis, right? AFAIUI a person can be 'sectioned' to a secure hospital on the basis of it's scorings. Serious stuff then. It's not a bible for the non-professional, but it can suggest directions to consider further.
Diagnostic Criteria

A. Persistent deficits in social communication and social interaction across multiple contexts, as manifested by the following, currently or by history (examples are illustrative, not exhaustive, see text):

1. Deficits in social-emotional reciprocity, ranging, for example, from abnormal social approach and failure of normal back-and-forth conversation; to reduced sharing of interests, emotions, or affect; to failure to initiate or respond to social interactions.

2. Deficits in nonverbal communicative behaviors used for social interaction, ranging, for example, from poorly integrated verbal and nonverbal communication; to abnormalities in eye contact and body language or deficits in understanding and use of gestures; to a total lack of facial expressions and nonverbal communication.
[..]


So you are saying children within the basic (compulsory) education track are able to comprehend this?
The professionals after few years of specialized academic studies are not. This is of a very limited use without proper clinical/therapeutic experience.

JR8 wrote:
x9200 wrote:People stay in toxic relationships despite of seeing and acknowledging the obvious. It is not that they can not see it because they are not educated.


Of course, not all leave. There is a varying element of co-dependency. This is one reason for the fight, separate, make up, repeat, repeat, repeat, Groundhog Day that some people seem to end up in. Surely better to have even some basic idea of the conditions that sometimes cause it before you're unlucky enough to encounter any, rather than it remaining taboo and whispered by people behind closed doors, or 'qualified medical professionals' only*. There are plenty of online self-diagnoses websites. The NHS in the UK has one ('NHSDirect'). It's very broad but naturally it only goes so far, but better to have some knowledge, pointers, and recommendations re: a condition, than to be left completely in the dark.

Sorry JR, but I think you completely missed the point. Majority of people really have no problem to notice that something is wrong. How is it going to help them if they can name it with the name of a disorder? More-over, I bet with this naming, they will be more often wrong than right and this could already have some very negative consequences to the relationship.

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Re: PR approved, but I don't need it anymore WTF!!!???

Postby ecureilx » Sat, 14 Feb 2015 11:43 am

Sergei82 wrote:ecureilx, I had to go only once - pre-divorce counseling (arranged a separate session so not to see HER). Their primary concern was: will I give up Islam because of my wife? I answered them that my wife is not an indicator of anything in Islam (which is true!) and I don't make decisions like that because of my wife. On that grounds nobody antagonized me there, I didn't antagonize anyone as well - we just talked, they didn't even feel like convincing me to stay in that marriage for longer (which is contradicting Islamic values, but the situation is like almost nothing (if art all) attributed to marriage happened in our "family" so far, at least from HER side).

PNGMK, they charge quite heavy. One asked sgd $4000. I can pay it, but yet not very comfortable - not sure yet how much will I spend on relocation, house deposit in HK. The company is not paying for relocation since I'm their external hire, its just higher salary (which is good). I'm not sure if the benefit of the lawyer in this marriage - so short! (7.5 months to the point of desertion)

Your experience sounds like how I felt when a friend's case was reviewed at the MND/SLF building

I recall you may not have to pay maintenance if you convince the judge in the hearing (which was more like boardroom meeting)

You can give a gift and close it off

Singapore Sharia court is far modernised I guess ... and with reality

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Re: PR approved, but I don't need it anymore WTF!!!???

Postby ecureilx » Sat, 14 Feb 2015 11:46 am

Wd40 wrote:Jealous because we didnt get PR or because we can't divorce our wives as easily? :-# :-$ :mrgreen: :)


That all Muslims can easily divorce is a rarity and a myth in Singapore unless the circumstances come together

For every 10 divorces 3 get extremely long drawn out

That's my 2 cents

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Re: PR approved, but I don't need it anymore WTF!!!???

Postby Wd40 » Sat, 14 Feb 2015 12:28 pm

I wasn't talking about Muslims, I was talking about westerners. Also when I said easy, I didnt mean procedure wise but more about culturewise.

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Re: PR approved, but I don't need it anymore WTF!!!???

Postby Sergei82 » Sat, 14 Feb 2015 1:58 pm

ecureilx, ROMM divorce rate is much higher than ROM divorce rate. Authorities do recognize this fact and never hide it. Moreover, it is stressed during pre-marriage Muslim courses as well. They do try to address it, but haven't found any effective remedy, nor the cause of it is not clear. Remedies like obligatory pre-marital courses and obligatory pre-divorce counseling are just some formalities that were created out of despair not knowing what to do.

X9200, you're absolutely right - there was time my hobby was reading about all those psychological disorders, a lot of books on psychotherapy. During those years I was dating various girls and trying to understand how to deal with them. I even considered myself to be knowledgeable. I didn't help me. Emotional and irrational parts are definitely there. I always fall on pretty bitches. I hope, at last I find one that is both pretty and not dumb at the same time. :mrgreen:

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Re: PR approved, but I don't need it anymore WTF!!!???

Postby nanana » Sat, 14 Feb 2015 6:35 pm

Sergei82 wrote:ecureilx, ROMM divorce rate is much higher than ROM divorce rate. Authorities do recognize this fact and never hide it. Moreover, it is stressed during pre-marriage Muslim courses as well. They do try to address it, but haven't found any effective remedy, nor the cause of it is not clear. Remedies like obligatory pre-marital courses and obligatory pre-divorce counseling are just some formalities that were created out of despair not knowing what to do.

X9200, you're absolutely right - there was time my hobby was reading about all those psychological disorders, a lot of books on psychotherapy. During those years I was dating various girls and trying to understand how to deal with them. I even considered myself to be knowledgeable. I didn't help me. Emotional and irrational parts are definitely there. I always fall on pretty bitches. I hope, at last I find one that is both pretty and not dumb at the same time. :mrgreen:


you will. after few bottles of vodka.... :mrgreen:

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Re: PR approved, but I don't need it anymore WTF!!!???

Postby PNGMK » Sat, 14 Feb 2015 7:56 pm

Sergei82 wrote:ecureilx, I had to go only once - pre-divorce counseling (arranged a separate session so not to see HER). Their primary concern was: will I give up Islam because of my wife? I answered them that my wife is not an indicator of anything in Islam (which is true!) and I don't make decisions like that because of my wife. On that grounds nobody antagonized me there, I didn't antagonize anyone as well - we just talked, they didn't even feel like convincing me to stay in that marriage for longer (which is contradicting Islamic values, but the situation is like almost nothing (if art all) attributed to marriage happened in our "family" so far, at least from HER side).

PNGMK, they charge quite heavy. One asked sgd $4000. I can pay it, but yet not very comfortable - not sure yet how much will I spend on relocation, house deposit in HK. The company is not paying for relocation since I'm their external hire, its just higher salary (which is good). I'm not sure if the benefit of the lawyer in this marriage - so short! (7.5 months to the point of desertion)


$4000 is nothing to get peace of mind and certainty. I've never regretted it. A divorce (contested) in Australia can easily run to $100,000.
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Re: PR approved, but I don't need it anymore WTF!!!???

Postby The Ref » Sat, 14 Feb 2015 9:56 pm

With such a short marriage it wont cost too much, however the more you fight the more it costs. An ex workmate ended up at the high court and it has been going on for over 3 years.

Sorry to hear about your circumstances - but if I was 32 and single I would be heading to Hong Kong too ;-)

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Re: PR approved, but I don't need it anymore WTF!!!???

Postby ecureilx » Sun, 15 Feb 2015 12:32 am

The Ref wrote:With such a short marriage it wont cost too much, however the more you fight the more it costs. An ex workmate ended up at the high court and it has been going on for over 3 years.

Sorry to hear about your circumstances - but if I was 32 and single I would be heading to Hong Kong too ;-)

Was your ex mate's marriage under ROMM ?

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Re: PR approved, but I don't need it anymore WTF!!!???

Postby JR8 » Sun, 15 Feb 2015 1:27 am

@X9
Heh? The DSM is not aimed at children, how did that suggestion come about? It is the clinical diagnostic manual for professional reference. I'm suggesting that many adults will at least be able to understand the basics of it, and probably make use of it, as a starting point, without being guided and hand-held through it.

x9200 wrote:Sorry JR, but I think you completely missed the point. Majority of people really have no problem to notice that something is wrong. How is it going to help them if they can name it with the name of a disorder? More-over, I bet with this naming, they will be more often wrong than right and this could already have some very negative consequences to the relationship.


As you are mine as far as I can tell. If I tell you you have Multiple Sclerosis, then you have some idea what to expect next. You can go away and learn a whole lot more. [And a doctor did do this for me just a few years back.... thankfully it transpired he was incorrect... but that wasn't a fun day [sigh], what a truly terrible way to go that must be...]

How does it help? I'll tell you how it helped in my situation. I was faced with something 'really quite similar' [intentionally vague] to what Sergei is going through, in my case with my first wife. It honestly was the most explosive, inexplicable random scary episode of my entire life, at that point. I had no idea what was happening - it had no logical normal reference points at all. How do you deal with that? A friend/neighbour suggested it might be bi-polar disorder (aka manic depression). I had no idea what such things were or why they happened. Such thing 'don't happen' in the close knit community I was brought up in, and certainly not to 'good/decent people' - that's sort of the culture. So they're never discussed, and younger people typically have no idea what they are. I'd heard of it sure but had to go away and read up about what it actually was. I found some similarities, but not particularly compelling. I still had no idea really.

Through a work staff 3rd-party help-line, things were so bad, I plucked up the courage to call them one day, and just try to explain what I was going through. It's not easy if what you're going to try and describe sounds inexplicable, and almost beyond comprehension, i.e. like they might not understand, but instead conclude that it's actually YOU who is the nutter. But no, the counsellor at the other end clearly had some idea of what was going on, as I was right away referred to 2*week appointments with a psych/counsellor (and later this reduced to 1* week). It's lucky as at that point it really was a lifeline.

Ultimately I visited her for maybe three months, on the drive home after work. From the point of having no clue WTH was happening, to having engaged a divorce lawyer, and filed the papers in court. At that point I was leaving the country anyway, though I had to return for compulsory mediation, and then later again for the 20 minute hearing. Settlement agreed? Yes. Any other issues? Apart from my XW losing it and getting hysterical at the judge, and trying to somehow relaunch a whole new parallel case (LOL - good one, so like her)- No? Bang, it's over.

The start of the exit route to the door was (as I might have said) as early as the 1st session with the shrink. Where, after listening to me talking non-stop for 49.5 minutes she concluded 'JR8, I think you should go home tonight and take a look on the net, into 'XYZ' [Int/vague] personality disorder'. Perhaps you think she shouldn't have done that?

I was led to that in one hour, by a very experienced and very highly qualified professional. And like I said, when I got home and did as she suggested, it was like being hit with a shovel on the back of the head... 'Boom!'. Suddenly everything made sense. You've heard of the expression 'Seeing the light'... something that some of us might experience a few times in a lifetime. Well, due to my circumstances and ignorance on such matters, this was like a 'F*** Me! Seeing the light epiphany'. Honestly terrifying. I never expect to repeat anything like that one moment in my entire life. In many ways, I hope I never do. Suddenly I knew I had to get out, and as much as I deeply believed in the vow of 'In sickness and in health', I realised there was no alternative. And suddenly I knew I was in for the fight of my life, since leaving, despite the allegations, was the last thing my accuser was expecting or wishing me to actually do.

Not a fun time that's for sure. But luckily I was leaving the US anyway very soon thereafter, so there was then 5000 miles of clear water between us. Still when I got back home, I was acutely aware when out and about that she might have turned up looking for me (she did know where I likely lived). In any case that was the start of the end. It's still today the reason I post on no public websites under my real name... I have no doubt if she could contact me that she would, even now, as she seems to have an unquenchable drive, a 'pathological need' to dish out yet further revenge. I reckon people like that never get over things, never forgive [even the totally imagined], and never forget. It's not something now, 15 years later, I think about more than very occasionally. Usually when I do it's quietly remembering the horror of it if I hear reports that have striking similarities. Such as this one ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Andrews - or indeed poor old Sergei's. His position, reminds me of what mine was, and I really feel for him, as I believe I have probably been to the particular 'crazy-zone' he's in right now. Just now knowing what's just hit you.

So X9 what's your interest in this, it's not clear? Are you a psych who doesn't like people doing their own background research, it clearly animates you quite strongly? Ah well, either way, my psych clearly thought a different approach was better in my circumstances. Thank God she did, it made my exiting from the situation, simpler, faster, and at least in some ways at least partially comprehensible.
Last edited by JR8 on Sun, 15 Feb 2015 1:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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