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Is it legal for Saxo to requote price many times higher and

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kohll
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Is it legal for Saxo to requote price many times higher and

Postby kohll » Mon, 26 Jan 2015 11:21 pm

Are there any Saxo clients in Singapore that have been negatively impacted by their CHF Swiss Franc re-pricing?

In Saxo case, they had traded and close the positions i.e. its consider a done deal with the retail clients . However, they had refused to honour the close out positions and reset the price of the positions only 12 hours later at a significantly unfavourable rate, as they were unable to get the same rate from the "wholesaler", instead of bearing the P/L they are passing over to the retail client.

This is not market practice, please refer to the extract from Reuters below.

Canada-based foreign exchange broker OANDA said in a statement it "will pardon our clients' negative account balances associated with this market event" and would not "re-quote or amend" clients' trades on the Swiss currency.

But Denmark's Saxo Bank, one of the biggest players in retail foreign exchange trading, said late on Thursday it would potentially set different rates for its clients' transactions.

Saxo Bank chief financial officer Steen Blaafalk told Reuters some clients had suffered losses but the bank was well capitalised. Retail investors, some of whom face huge losses, protested when Saxo said it might set different rates.

Lawyers said this could be contested.

"I think there will be litigation and disputes over automatic close-outs," said a financial services lawyer.

We are all coming together pls email us at saxosgchf@gmail.com if you feel you had been unfairly treated.

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Re: Is it legal for Saxo to requote price many times higher

Postby PNGMK » Tue, 27 Jan 2015 4:14 pm

kohll wrote:Are there any Saxo clients in Singapore that have been negatively impacted by their CHF Swiss Franc re-pricing?

In Saxo case, they had traded and close the positions i.e. its consider a done deal with the retail clients . However, they had refused to honour the close out positions and reset the price of the positions only 12 hours later at a significantly unfavourable rate, as they were unable to get the same rate from the "wholesaler", instead of bearing the P/L they are passing over to the retail client.

This is not market practice, please refer to the extract from Reuters below.

Canada-based foreign exchange broker OANDA said in a statement it "will pardon our clients' negative account balances associated with this market event" and would not "re-quote or amend" clients' trades on the Swiss currency.

But Denmark's Saxo Bank, one of the biggest players in retail foreign exchange trading, said late on Thursday it would potentially set different rates for its clients' transactions.

Saxo Bank chief financial officer Steen Blaafalk told Reuters some clients had suffered losses but the bank was well capitalised. Retail investors, some of whom face huge losses, protested when Saxo said it might set different rates.

Lawyers said this could be contested.

"I think there will be litigation and disputes over automatic close-outs," said a financial services lawyer.

We are all coming together pls email us at saxosgchf@gmail.com if you feel you had been unfairly treated.



They do the same on CFD's as well where they have been caught short and the investor has done well.

I trade with Saxo and so far they're ok but I only buy equities and no CFD or Forex.
I have gay, black, Asian friends and then JR8.

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Re: Is it legal for Saxo to requote price many times higher

Postby kohll » Tue, 27 Jan 2015 11:39 pm

But be warned, Saxo has questionable intergity.
If you have money with Saxo I advise you may want to consider taking out, most clients are not paying despite what Saxo is saying, they would be having losses up to 107MN

http://www.forexlive.com/blog/2015/01/2 ... anc-fills/

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Re: Is it legal for Saxo to requote price many times higher

Postby JR8 » Wed, 28 Jan 2015 10:41 am

kohll wrote:But be warned, Saxo has questionable intergity.
If you have money with Saxo I advise you may want to consider taking out, most clients are not paying despite what Saxo is saying, they would be having losses up to 107MN

http://www.forexlive.com/blog/2015/01/2 ... anc-fills/


Nah. Sounds to me like you put on a very highly speculative position with funds borrowed on margin from Saxo, that you thought was a no-brainer, I mean 'The Swiss peg is immortal isn't it?'. The when it broke, your position was closed out versus a market in which there was nil liquidity. So to protect primarily your interests they did their duty and closed your position via crosses in which there was some limited liquidity. Allocating the indirect close-out took time to process, but their methodology seems clear and appropriate.

And now you're finger pointing, and suggesting that your misguided speculation, is somehow their fault. You aren't the first, and you won't be the last. We had clients that after their positions got similarly fried, i.e. closed out via a margin call, suggested that we the bankers somehow allowed them to fry themselves. Hey it even happened to me once long ago, with the '''sure-win''' Japanese Equity Warrants strategy. But being able to look in the mirror, and accept you f'd something up, and it's entirely your own fault is a sign of adulthood. Even those JPnese warrants weren't a patch on the risk that you appear to have taken on.

Rather than seeking to pick holes in the precise method of execution, and whether you now consider it to be a method to your ideal-world preference, you might be better served reading the client disclaimers that you signed up to. These will include things like:

- I accept that what I want to do is very highly speculative.
- I accept that I can lose all my money, and be liable for any that I have borrowed.
- I accept that in unusual market circumstances, close-outs might require time to execute and allocate.

Any class action, based on the indignant gumph you linked, is only likely to fund lawyers fees. 'Twas ever thus.
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Re: Is it legal for Saxo to requote price many times higher

Postby Strong Eagle » Wed, 28 Jan 2015 11:01 am

We may disagree on a bunch of stuff, JR8, but I do appreciate your financial insights. I do hope the OP will be more specific about the investments so that I can better understand how this works.

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Re: Is it legal for Saxo to requote price many times higher

Postby kohll » Wed, 28 Jan 2015 11:15 pm

Sound like JR8 is the spokeperson from SAXO

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Re: Is it legal for Saxo to requote price many times higher

Postby kohll » Wed, 28 Jan 2015 11:16 pm

And JR8 is making personal attack

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Re: Is it legal for Saxo to requote price many times higher

Postby kohll » Wed, 28 Jan 2015 11:19 pm

In anycase please go read today's Straits Times Money section 1st Page, we are taking legal actions aganist saxo. Saxo actions is not consistent with market practice not hououring the trades, and amending the trades only 12 hours later

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Re: Is it legal for Saxo to requote price many times higher

Postby kohll » Wed, 28 Jan 2015 11:20 pm

First, let's get some facts right, and understand of how the industry works.
Big wholesale currencies-dealing banks (Citigroup INCC, HSBC Bank PLC) pump out prices. Retail brokers suck those prices in, add a bigger spread, and push them out to retail traders under their own name. So the brokers handle all the client interaction, and snag the extra spread, and the big banks get a bit of extra business without all the fiddly issues that come with handling relatively unsophisticated clients. Some of the Brokers run their own propriety positions they may hedge or trade against their client positions. If there is a gap between what the Brokers had on their books vs. what they trade with the Banks its part of the business risk and profit/loss of this business. In a way, its no different from any wholesale and retail business.

In Saxo case, they had traded and close the positions i.e. its consider a done deal with the retail clients . However, they had refused to honour the close out positions and reset the price of the positions only 12 hours later at a significantly unfavourable rate, as they were unable to get the same rate from the "wholesaler", instead of bearing the P/L they are passing over to the retail client.

This is not market practice, please refer to the extract from Reuters below.

Canada-based foreign exchange broker OANDA said in a statement it "will pardon our clients' negative account balances associated with this market event" and would not "re-quote or amend" clients' trades on the Swiss currency.

But Denmark's Saxo Bank, one of the biggest players in retail foreign exchange trading, said late on Thursday it would potentially set different rates for its clients' transactions.

Saxo Bank chief financial officer Steen Blaafalk told Reuters some clients had suffered losses but the bank was well capitalised. Retail investors, some of whom face huge losses, protested when Saxo said it might set different rates.

Lawyers said this could be contested.

"I think there will be litigation and disputes over automatic close-outs," said a financial services lawyer.

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Re: Is it legal for Saxo to requote price many times higher

Postby PNGMK » Thu, 29 Jan 2015 8:52 am

kohll wrote:And JR8 is making personal attack


JR8 is a long standing poster here who has probably forgotten more about finance than you know. I certainly respect his opinions on many varied topics.
I have gay, black, Asian friends and then JR8.

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Re: Is it legal for Saxo to requote price many times higher

Postby ecureilx » Thu, 29 Jan 2015 11:48 am

kohll wrote:And JR8 is making personal attack

You sound very angry enough to shoot those who don't agree with you ...

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Re: Is it legal for Saxo to requote price many times higher

Postby JR8 » Thu, 29 Jan 2015 3:57 pm

kohll wrote:First, let's get some facts right, and understand of how the industry works.
Big wholesale currencies-dealing banks (Citigroup INCC, HSBC Bank PLC) pump out prices. Retail brokers suck those prices in, add a bigger spread, and push them out to retail traders under their own name. So the brokers handle all the client interaction, and snag the extra spread, and the big banks get a bit of extra business without all the fiddly issues that come with handling relatively unsophisticated clients. Some of the Brokers run their own propriety positions they may hedge or trade against their client positions. If there is a gap between what the Brokers had on their books vs. what they trade with the Banks its part of the business risk and profit/loss of this business. In a way, its no different from any wholesale and retail business.


Well quite, that is the usual process that faces a retail client.

kohll wrote: In Saxo case, they had traded and close the positions i.e. its consider a done deal with the retail clients . However, they had refused to honour the close out positions and reset the price of the positions only 12 hours later at a significantly unfavourable rate, as they were unable to get the same rate from the "wholesaler", instead of bearing the P/L they are passing over to the retail client.


They made a margin call (and compulsory close-out) on you. Sounds like there was insufficient market liquidity at the then indicated MTM price. Same reason that necessitated, as you indicated, closing you out via cross-trades.

kohll wrote:This is not market practice, please refer to the extract from Reuters below.
Canada-based foreign exchange broker OANDA said in a statement it "will pardon our clients' negative account balances associated with this market event" and would not "re-quote or amend" clients' trades on the Swiss currency.


The actions of another broker do not set any kind of precedent as to what is ‘market practice’. Where would the logic in that be?

kohll wrote:‘Lawyers said this could be contested.’


Naturally. Lawyers will take any case where they can suggest it has a chance of winning, and meanwhile you’re on the hook for their fees. It’s win-win for them, they must be rubbing their hands.

And no, I’m not a lawyer, neither do I work for Saxo or any other bank/broker/financial institution. I did however work in trading and banking (incl private client retail banking/brokerage) for 15 years, and have been a self-employed investor for c30 years, the last 15 as my full-time job. Unless you can categorically evidence that you were sold products that were outside of your 'risk profile' (i.e. the profile of risks you indicated you were willing to accept), and/or that your account management (handling) was in breach of their contractual obligations, then it's unclear that you have a case.

So when I suggested you not work yourself up into some kind of rabid fury and rush to lawyers; simply reviewing the paperwork you signed up to would seem to be the most sensible starting point... don’t you think?
'Do it or do not do it: You will regret both' - Kierkegaard

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Re: Is it legal for Saxo to requote price many times higher

Postby Wd40 » Thu, 29 Jan 2015 4:43 pm

OP seems to have a lot of FX industry insider knowledge, I don't think he is a trader, he seems like he is from a rival broker trying to make use of this bad press for saxo and spreading it online. Then direct attack on JR8, kind of confirms it, pot kettle black

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Re: Is it legal for Saxo to requote price many times higher

Postby kohll » Thu, 29 Jan 2015 10:42 pm

Just tot i share my views on this.

i think when "lawyers think its contestable" it's becos......

Even if you sign a black and white contract, does not mean it can be legally binding.

google Unfair Contract Terms Act

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unfair_Con ... s_Act_1977

I guess it's up to the judge to decide if the terms in the contract satisfies the "Reasonableness test", and the validity of any exemption/indemnity (of the Company) clauses within the contract.

I think if we google enough, we should be able to find enough legal cases where judges invalidate contracts signed due to unfair terms.

I can also understand Saxo's point. If Saxo fights the case, they stand a chance (even if it's 0.0001%) to recover some money. If they just let it be, it's a 100% loss. So why not just try.

On a separate note, who the hell reads the T&Cs when they activate their iPhones .....i think if you print out the T&C in 12pt, it should be a few thousand pages. And almost 99.999% of iphone users just "I accept" in 2 seconds.

Maybe hidden in that millions of words under clause 3012.1.3 section 521 para 488 it says, "Apple has the right to charge you $10 everyday, and collect from you in 2016" ? (Legally binding?)

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Re: Is it legal for Saxo to requote price many times higher

Postby kohll » Thu, 29 Jan 2015 10:46 pm

We would accept our losses if it does means that out positions are close out on fair terms. Pls refer to the below sequence of events for saxo

Each of us has suffered losses from our respective positions and we would have accepted it and move on. However its the subsequent of the general sequence of events that made our experiences in dealing with Saxo Capital thus far have left us thoroughly disappointed, as their actions have been grossly unfair, improper and unethical.:

• We received notifications that stated that orders on our accounts were executed, along with the corresponding rates.

• Some 12 hours after the orders were filled, Saxo Capital proceeded to retrospectively re-price these executed orders.

• It was only on or around 26 January 2015 when Saxo Capital explained the revised rates.

• As a result of the re-pricing, many account balances there were comfortably in the positive were wiped out, and went into negative.

• Despite being well aware of clients’ dispute regarding the re-pricing and Saxo Capital failing to provide satisfactory explanations, Saxo Capital began issuing Letters of Demand for negative balances and/or margin calls.


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