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The wife-beater’s defence

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Brah
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The wife-beater’s defence

Postby Brah » Sat, 17 Jan 2015 11:52 pm

I am not one to publicly argue religion or politics, and I refuse to allow myself to be boxed into either left/right corners, and I am admittedly ignorant of the reputation of the source though I stop by their website from time to time, but this article said something like what I was thinking after hearing the first thing that from him that I disagreed with.

Oh yes, you can. You may not choose to. It may not be wise or polite or kind – but you can.


http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... rlie-hebdo
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Re: The wife-beater’s defence

Postby x9200 » Sun, 18 Jan 2015 9:45 am

That's the essence. It is not that the majority in Western countries particularly like what CH publishes.

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Re: The wife-beater’s defence

Postby ecureilx » Sun, 18 Jan 2015 11:59 am

Brah wrote:I am not one to publicly argue religion or politics, and I refuse to allow myself to be boxed into either left/right corners, and I am admittedly ignorant of the reputation of the source though I stop by their website from time to time, but this article said something like what I was thinking after hearing the first thing that from him that I disagreed with.

Oh yes, you can. You may not choose to. It may not be wise or polite or kind – but you can.


http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... rlie-hebdo


He mentioned it in a jovial mood, and if you start to dissect everything a person says, you can find a lot of faults ..

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Re: The wife-beater’s defence

Postby Brah » Sun, 18 Jan 2015 12:21 pm

ecureilx wrote:
Brah wrote:I am not one to publicly argue religion or politics, and I refuse to allow myself to be boxed into either left/right corners, and I am admittedly ignorant of the reputation of the source though I stop by their website from time to time, but this article said something like what I was thinking after hearing the first thing that from him that I disagreed with.

Oh yes, you can. You may not choose to. It may not be wise or polite or kind – but you can.


http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... rlie-hebdo


He mentioned it in a jovial mood, and if you start to dissect everything a person says, you can find a lot of faults ..
i
That is a unique interpretation of what the man said, and not one I can agree with. The writer of the article certainly didn't see it as anything jovial, and I agree with her.

There is a lot of post-comment commentary on this so we can see this play out in the global media.
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Re: The wife-beater’s defence

Postby x9200 » Sun, 18 Jan 2015 1:15 pm

Jovial? You mean like light and cheerful while talking about the death of 17 or so people?

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Re: The wife-beater’s defence

Postby JR8 » Sun, 18 Jan 2015 2:20 pm

The Guardian is one of the few papers and perhaps sole remaining 'broadsheet' that you can read online without a paid subscription. Despite which I still cannot bring myself to read it. Sometimes I am resigned to it being the last free newspaper left on a flight to/from the UK, but it's editorial political position wafts from page one, even before you've opened it. I prefer something a bit more middle of the road that lets me form my own conclusions based upon facts intelligently reported, or at least that presents a range of opinions. The days of simply being able to read a range of papers and so form a balanced opinion is now gone as a result of pay-walls. [Ironically, given it's name, another UK broadsheet '''The Independent''' is perhaps even more institutionally left-wing than the Guardian, which is going something].

And then Polly Toynbee, a typical 'leftie intellectual'. Very posh boarding school, Oxford, aristocracy in the family, several posh homes including a villa in Tuscany. So just another posh leftie preaching what she has never and will never experience nor live.

Despite all of which, I found the article unexpectedly and surprisingly aligned with my own views. Quite the shocker! :o You need to keep in mind she is an atheist however, but then again so am I. But I found it interesting the parallel drawn between the power and positioning of the Catholic church, versus that manifested under the name of Islam. Of course in England we had the Reformation nigh on 500 years ago; i.e. the booting out of the Catholics and Vatican law, and the separation of Church and State. I think that's one reason we take so unkindly to seeing religious 'sects' attempting to exert themselves and their power, especially when it's close to home.
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Re: The wife-beater’s defence

Postby PNGMK » Sun, 18 Jan 2015 7:49 pm

I love the Guardian.
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Re: The wife-beater’s defence

Postby JR8 » Sun, 18 Jan 2015 8:12 pm

PNGMK wrote:I love the Guardian.



Because.... you're a left-wing metropolitan gay minority-race otherly-abled public-sector worker? :cool: 8-[
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Re: The wife-beater’s defence

Postby Brah » Sun, 18 Jan 2015 9:33 pm

Well this is interesting and what I somewhat expected, regarding the credibility of the paper and writer.

A place like the States is at least if not more divided than the UK with the left and the right backed into their respective corners, and I always question anything extremist. At the same time, I have to catch myself from disregarding all perspectives from even them as sometimes they have a point.

In this case, I will quote one of our own, who said this better than I could myself:
Neither the Pope nor a bunch of armed thugs have the right to dictate what can or cannot be printed. Personally I don't like some of the imagery used by Charlie Hebdo, but I defend their right to freedom of expression within the limits that have been laid down by a society.
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Re: The wife-beater’s defence

Postby the lynx » Mon, 19 Jan 2015 9:33 am

Brah wrote:In this case, I will quote one of our own, who said this better than I could myself:
Neither the Pope nor a bunch of armed thugs have the right to dictate what can or cannot be printed. Personally I don't like some of the imagery used by Charlie Hebdo, but I defend their right to freedom of expression within the limits that have been laid down by a society.


While I support the freedom of expression, I also support responsible expression.

"...within the limits that have been laid down by a society."

What are the limits?

Or should I refer this question to the person who quoted this line?

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Re: The wife-beater’s defence

Postby nakatago » Mon, 19 Jan 2015 9:45 am

Brah wrote:Well this is interesting and what I somewhat expected, regarding the credibility of the paper and writer.

A place like the States is at least if not more divided than the UK with the left and the right backed into their respective corners, and I always question anything extremist. At the same time, I have to catch myself from disregarding all perspectives from even them as sometimes they have a point.

In this case, I will quote one of our own, who said this better than I could myself:
Neither the Pope nor a bunch of armed thugs have the right to dictate what can or cannot be printed. Personally I don't like some of the imagery used by Charlie Hebdo, but I defend their right to freedom of expression within the limits that have been laid down by a society.



Obligatory xkcd:

Image

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Re: The wife-beater’s defence

Postby x9200 » Mon, 19 Jan 2015 10:16 am

It's not the government, is the law that should reflect the thinking of the society it concers. The problem is if the society is devided (i.e. 50-50).

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Re: The wife-beater’s defence

Postby Mi Amigo » Mon, 26 Jan 2015 5:57 am

the lynx wrote:
Brah wrote:In this case, I will quote one of our own, who said this better than I could myself:
Neither the Pope nor a bunch of armed thugs have the right to dictate what can or cannot be printed. Personally I don't like some of the imagery used by Charlie Hebdo, but I defend their right to freedom of expression within the limits that have been laid down by a society.


While I support the freedom of expression, I also support responsible expression.

"...within the limits that have been laid down by a society."

What are the limits?

Or should I refer this question to the person who quoted this line?

Hey, I recognise that text ;-)

For the record, Lynx and I had a discussion about this in the 'other place' that Brah quoted me from. Lynx postulated on whether the limits deemed appropriate by 'society' might be different to those of the government in a given place, which is a good point. My full reply was:

Well I intended the word 'society' to be taken in the widest context, including government. There are ongoing debates in France and many European countries about immigration, freedom of speech, etc. and in the end the laws of land are what determine the limits to expression. It's a complex, very imperfect system, but that's how democracies are supposed to work. There have been legal challenges to Charlie Hedbo in the past and doubtless there will be in the future - that's the way these things should be dealt with, not by the Pope issuing some kind of fatwa (saying it's normal to punch someone if you don't like something they said is rather shocking coming from him), and certainly not by a group of armed criminals.
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Re: The wife-beater’s defence

Postby PNGMK » Mon, 26 Jan 2015 1:53 pm

JR8 wrote:
PNGMK wrote:I love the Guardian.



Because.... you're a left-wing metropolitan gay minority-race otherly-abled public-sector worker? :cool: 8-[


No - because they are a voice from the other side. The MSM is pretty much controlled by Murdoch and a few others - the guardian not so.
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Re: The wife-beater’s defence

Postby JR8 » Mon, 26 Jan 2015 2:59 pm

PNGMK wrote:No - because they are a voice from the other side.


As is the Daily Worker, but I don't read that either and for similar reasons ;)

The MSM is pretty much controlled by Murdoch and a few others - the guardian not so.


I'm not sure what influence Murdoch has over most people. I think I'd have to pay to access any of his media, so by default I don't.

The Guardian doesn't have some kind of moral clean-sheet.
Scroll down to 'Ownership', they are certainly idiosyncratic... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Trust_Limited perhaps unique in being a generally mainstream newspaper, that makes huge losses each year, and is funded via a mammoth bequest from it's original founder. I.e. the paper couldn't exist day to day based upon it's own viewpoint and merits.
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