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Barnsley
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Democracy or Economic Growth?

Postby Barnsley » Thu, 15 Jan 2015 5:44 pm

Are these two things mutually exclusive?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-30808735

The HK boss would appear to think so.

Maybe there is some similar thinking here too?
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Re: Democracy or Economic Growth?

Postby JR8 » Thu, 15 Jan 2015 9:48 pm

HK seemed to be doing very well with both democracy and economic growth, up until now.
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Re: Democracy or Economic Growth?

Postby zzm9980 » Fri, 16 Jan 2015 10:26 am

JR8 wrote:HK seemed to be doing very well with both democracy and economic growth, up until now.


I'd agree. I'd say both are possible, at a set pace. If someone wants the pace of either to accelerate, I think you will then have a negative impact on the other.

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Re: Democracy or Economic Growth?

Postby Wd40 » Fri, 16 Jan 2015 10:45 am

I wonder where does Russia fall? As a child I used to think its a developed country then it turned out to be a emerging market part of the BRIC. Now it is going below the BRIC level as well...

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Re: Democracy or Economic Growth?

Postby Strong Eagle » Fri, 16 Jan 2015 12:22 pm

Wd40 wrote:I wonder where does Russia fall? As a child I used to think its a developed country then it turned out to be a emerging market part of the BRIC. Now it is going below the BRIC level as well...


Russia has never had anything approaching democracy in any meaningful terms, and now, thanks to Putin, it's nearly completed its travels to a full fledged tyranny.

Russia's economy has been a one trick pony... oil... and until the corruption is brought under control, the economy will continue to slide and continue to be totally dependent on oil exports... but Putin won't care because he is the one behind all the corruption.

Russia have never been a "developed" country in the largest sense of the word.

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Re: Democracy or Economic Growth?

Postby JR8 » Fri, 16 Jan 2015 2:01 pm

^+1!
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Re: Democracy or Economic Growth?

Postby Mi Amigo » Sat, 17 Jan 2015 1:03 am

I think what this has proved is that the Beijing government can't be trusted, but we knew that already. Plus we have to keep in mind that HK was never democratic under British rule. It's a pity they didn't set up a proper system of elected representation before the handover: that would have made it somewhat harder for Beijing to roll back.
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Re: Democracy or Economic Growth?

Postby Wd40 » Sun, 25 Jan 2015 9:46 pm

Related and very nice article:

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 009606.cms

As China prospers, its low-wage units are migrating to Vietnam and Indonesia. It needs to develop innovative skills and strong institutions of its own. Many middle-income countries (notably in Latin America ) have failed to do so, and so remained in the middle-income trap.

Economist David Dollar has shown that, barring a hand ful of oil-rich countries, all middle-income nations that moved to high-income status had to become democracies with strong civil liberties and independent judiciaries.These seem essential for nurturing innovative capacity and the accompanying property rights and accountability.

Spain and Portugal rose to high-income status only after the departures of dictators Franco and Salazar. Japan attained high income only after becoming a democracy.

South Korea and Taiwan were poor countries that skyrocketed into middle-income status under dictators. But that phase came to a sticky end in the Asian Financial Crisis. Both countries then evolved into democracies, after which they soared to high-income levels. Singapore is the richest Asian tiger. Some question if it's truly a democracy, but it certainly has rule of law and fair elections.

So, efficient autocracies can spark fast growth -as in China -but end in the middle-income trap unless they evolve into democracies with civil rights and independent judiciaries. However, the Chinese Communist Party is dead against democracy, and President Xi is a hardliner.

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Re: Democracy or Economic Growth?

Postby sgstrait » Sun, 12 Jul 2015 6:35 pm


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Re: Democracy or Economic Growth?

Postby calugaruvaxile » Mon, 13 Jul 2015 11:28 pm

Strong Eagle wrote:
Wd40 wrote:I wonder where does Russia fall? As a child I used to think its a developed country then it turned out to be a emerging market part of the BRIC. Now it is going below the BRIC level as well...


Russia has never had anything approaching democracy in any meaningful terms, and now, thanks to Putin, it's nearly completed its travels to a full fledged tyranny.

Russia's economy has been a one trick pony... oil... and until the corruption is brought under control, the economy will continue to slide and continue to be totally dependent on oil exports... but Putin won't care because he is the one behind all the corruption.

Russia have never been a "developed" country in the largest sense of the word.


don't underestimate the russian tech. it's still able to launch unmanned soyuz weekly and manned soyuz monthly. russia is a strange place, inhomogeneous and anisotropic.

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Re: RE: Re: Democracy or Economic Growth?

Postby sgstrait » Mon, 20 Jul 2015 7:50 am

calugaruvaxile wrote:[quote="Strong Eagle"][quote="Wd40"]I wonder where does Russia fall? As a child I used to think its a developed country then it turned out to be a emerging market part of the BRIC. Now it is going below the BRIC level as well...


Russia has never had anything approaching democracy in any meaningful terms, and now, thanks to Putin, it's nearly completed its travels to a full fledged tyranny.

Russia's economy has been a one trick pony... oil... and until the corruption is brought under control, the economy will continue to slide and continue to be totally dependent on oil exports... but Putin won't care because he is the one behind all the corruption.

Russia have never been a "developed" country in the largest sense of the word.[/quote]

don't underestimate the russian tech. it's still able to launch unmanned soyuz weekly and manned soyuz monthly. russia is a strange place, inhomogeneous and anisotropic.[/quote]
Agree, Russia thought it could hold Western Europe hostage to its piped gas. Alas, LNG from Middle East, Canada and Australia, but mainly from Qatar and Oman, is easily be shipped to LNG import terminals in the EU now, and with shale gas in the USA, there's plenty of it. Couple that with historically low oil prices, and you can see why the Russian economy has tanked.

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Re: Democracy or Economic Growth?

Postby Barnsley » Mon, 20 Jul 2015 10:53 am

calugaruvaxile wrote:don't underestimate the russian tech. it's still able to launch unmanned soyuz weekly and manned soyuz monthly. russia is a strange place, inhomogeneous and anisotropic.


If you put all your eggs in one basket then one would hope you would end up good at something.

:D

Just think what they could have achieved if they hadn't had all their great minds working on Military and vanity projects.
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Re: Democracy or Economic Growth?

Postby ecureilx » Mon, 20 Jul 2015 12:51 pm

Barnsley wrote:Just think what they could have achieved if they hadn't had all their great minds working on Military and vanity projects.


Didn't some US Stateman say the Cold War ended, when US managed to force Russia to spend much beyond their means, on Arms, till they went broke ??

But, for me, Russians still deserve Credit, like Drying out the Aral Sea and changing the face of the Planet Earth, using Nuclear Devices to put out uncontrollable Fires (true stories) - to the World's Largest Plane (An 225) and so and so, until the US had to lease out Russian Assets to provide heavy lift in some recent wars.

And if you ever had a chance to be near a Mi 26, you will be beyond awed - and seeing it taking off- unbelievable.

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Re: RE: Re: Democracy or Economic Growth?

Postby sgstrait » Mon, 20 Jul 2015 1:01 pm

ecureilx wrote:[quote="Barnsley"]Just think what they could have achieved if they hadn't had all their great minds working on Military and vanity projects.


Didn't some US Stateman say the Cold War ended, when US managed to force Russia to spend much beyond their means, on Arms, till they went broke ??

But, for me, Russians still deserve Credit, like Drying out the Aral Sea and changing the face of the Planet Earth, using Nuclear Devices to put out uncontrollable Fires (true stories) - to the World's Largest Plane (An 225) and so and so, until the US had to lease out Russian Assets to provide heavy lift in some recent wars.

And if you ever had a chance to be near a Mi 26, you will be beyond awed - and seeing it taking off- unbelievable.[/quote]
I think that's the point. They were and still are good at inventing for self aggrandisement but useless at coming up with anything for the greater good. Many American military inventions have found their way into civilian use subsequently eg. drones, nuclear, and lots of other stuff. Problem is, Russia is a one trick pony with tunnel vision.

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Re: RE: Re: Democracy or Economic Growth?

Postby x9200 » Mon, 20 Jul 2015 1:30 pm

sgstrait wrote:
ecureilx wrote:
Barnsley wrote:Just think what they could have achieved if they hadn't had all their great minds working on Military and vanity projects.


Didn't some US Stateman say the Cold War ended, when US managed to force Russia to spend much beyond their means, on Arms, till they went broke ??

But, for me, Russians still deserve Credit, like Drying out the Aral Sea and changing the face of the Planet Earth, using Nuclear Devices to put out uncontrollable Fires (true stories) - to the World's Largest Plane (An 225) and so and so, until the US had to lease out Russian Assets to provide heavy lift in some recent wars.

And if you ever had a chance to be near a Mi 26, you will be beyond awed - and seeing it taking off- unbelievable.

I think that's the point. They were and still are good at inventing for self aggrandisement but useless at coming up with anything for the greater good. Many American military inventions have found their way into civilian use subsequently eg. drones, nuclear, and lots of other stuff. Problem is, Russia is a one trick pony with tunnel vision.

Many Russian inventions (both some true inventions and the copies) have been created with tremendous resources in expense of the society and also often just to demonstrate USSR had it bigger or first. This should be also weighted while giving any credit.

Besides, over longer time scale it's also about the mentality of the society. All the post-communistic countries suffer from this problem but at least most of the other countries are already on their way for an open, competitive market generational changes. I doubt anything like this happens in Russia.


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