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Looking for a Pulley system to haul stuff to the 4th floor

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Re: Looking for a Pulley system to haul stuff to the 4th flo

Postby x9200 » Thu, 06 Nov 2014 8:51 am

nakatago wrote:Bah. Not physics-y enough.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trebuchet

Yes, I agree, it's worth to consider too. A bit simplified version but easier to implement in urban environment is presented below.

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Re: Looking for a Pulley system to haul stuff to the 4th flo

Postby taxico » Thu, 06 Nov 2014 6:04 pm

x9200 wrote:I am just trying to address your points. You shared the concern that if it was legal (using the pulleys), people would use it.

From my observation Singaporeans do not get that easy involved in a specialized (DIY) work unless it is their professionally learned skill (changing a puncture tire one of the examples).

Then you said, how about the Movers, but this was a different thing - as the professionals for handling heavy/bulky items they would unlikely resort to a basic, simple pulley but for completely different reasons. This all IMO explains why we don't see it around. It is a bit more complicated thing than changing a tire or hanging lights from the ceiling but too limited in capabilities to be attractive for the relocation professionals.

I believe there is a pretty narrow range of "machinery" that needs a certificate/license to be operated. The whole rest is based on general law or for the professional use, the safety framework (SWP, RA etc. as of Workplace Safety & Health Act) I mentioned earlier.

Sure if Raj does it the way that there will be a heavy weight on a weak support swinging over a sidewalk full of pedestrians he will likely get fined or even detained by the first police patrol on the spot, but if he does it properly, not endangering anybody/anything, then why not?


specific to the tire and pulley analogy: changing a tire is quite different as it is cheap as heck (and usually not too long) to get your car towed to the nearest auto or tire shop. $40-50. i believe you get free tire change service with certain insurance policies and AAA membership.

why would singaporeans get their hands dirty when the financial outlay and risk is minimal? and would they behave the same way overseas when a tow is US$250 and you gotta wait 3 hours?

i mentioned that we would see more singaporeans using pulleys if it were allowed or tolerated... because it costs about $100 or more to engage Movers. way more if stairs are involved. the locals are well known for finding creative ways to save money.

perhaps the outlay of $150-200 (as laid out by eagle in his really detailed set of instructions above) negates any potential "savings"... and perhaps they prefer not to be stuck with a set of pulley and ropes after the job is done. or perhaps you speculate correctly they are just not the DIY sort and cannot be bothered.

but if light weight boxes can be safely and easily manipulated up several floors by a reusable set of pulley and ropes (and bars, and such), and going by the "no harm no foul" logic, wouldn't a Moving Company opt to do this until stopped or penalized by the authorities? and if there are no laws in place to prevent such activity in the first place, would we not see more Movers "safely" pulling up items from floor to floor? if singaporean home Movers don't do this to save a buck, i would imagine plenty of Moving Company towkays would be eager to adopt it and charge an in-between rate ($10/floor with pulleys instead of $20/floor by walking).

all lifting gear, appliances and machinery, when used for/at work, come under WHS act. the law is pretty clear on what counts and it's a very widely worded. i read up on the WHS act before getting certified as a DWD; statutory compliance (authorized examiners) are certainly required, as are the paperwork.

which brings me to assume that if raj is not being paid to do this, it may not be relevant. but surely the reason for not using pulleys go beyond uncreative singaporeans who do not (like to) DIY...?

my exposure to condos and HDB in singapore is somewhat limited. but what i DO know is, if you do not own the (entire) property, you need to get permission to move stuff into your home through unconventional methods (via windows/balconys/etc).

my father owns a detached home in singapore. he verbally permitted a crane to enter his compound for the purposes of lifting large objects off a flat bed truck into his indoor garden (static art pieces) and into his house (piano via second floor balcony).

when a few of the said items were moved into a strata title property (5-unit town house development, no guards, each unit nominates a member to the committee), permission was required from the committee. i assume that the same would apply when attaching a temporary lifting appliance for the movement of items from common property (say, the ground floor corridor) into private property.

i cannot imagine if i were to be caught using a pulley, even if attached well within my home, whose bylaws are actual government statutes (Sentosa 2008 Act or what not), how much dirty looks and letters i would get. and this is in a place that is, by my standards, very loosely populated and i would thus be more likely to get away with it. if not for the cameras and security patrols...

so, if you don't get caught, nothing happens. i really hope so. i cannot imagine the town council act for each area would be anything but loosely worded.

but getting caught notwithstanding, i know for a fact that HDB residents have regularly been cited, whether rightly or wrongly so (and many, wrongly accused), for attaching things such as prayer/joss stick pots, bird cages and potted plants near/by their windows and corridors. this is simply to reduce killer litter incidents.

i am implying that hanging up a potted plant somewhat permanently is the same as temporarily attaching (30 minutes?) a pulley, but the end result is likely the same - if it is likely to fall off and cause injury, it is likely to be not legal. if you get caught, you will be warned. if you are warned a few times, harsher penalties will apply.

surely this is not the way (nor feeling) to move into or be welcomed into a new neighborhood?

so i put to you again - if a simple non-attachable pulley, for the purposes of lifting up light weight boxes from the outside of a building, were at the very least tolerated, the locals would be using it with more regularity - especially in recent times of increased activity in the housing market.
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Re: Looking for a Pulley system to haul stuff to the 4th flo

Postby x9200 » Thu, 06 Nov 2014 10:18 pm

taxico wrote:
x9200 wrote:I am just trying to address your points. You shared the concern that if it was legal (using the pulleys), people would use it.

From my observation Singaporeans do not get that easy involved in a specialized (DIY) work unless it is their professionally learned skill (changing a puncture tire one of the examples).

Then you said, how about the Movers, but this was a different thing - as the professionals for handling heavy/bulky items they would unlikely resort to a basic, simple pulley but for completely different reasons. This all IMO explains why we don't see it around. It is a bit more complicated thing than changing a tire or hanging lights from the ceiling but too limited in capabilities to be attractive for the relocation professionals.

I believe there is a pretty narrow range of "machinery" that needs a certificate/license to be operated. The whole rest is based on general law or for the professional use, the safety framework (SWP, RA etc. as of Workplace Safety & Health Act) I mentioned earlier.

Sure if Raj does it the way that there will be a heavy weight on a weak support swinging over a sidewalk full of pedestrians he will likely get fined or even detained by the first police patrol on the spot, but if he does it properly, not endangering anybody/anything, then why not?


specific to the tire and pulley analogy: changing a tire is quite different as it is cheap as heck (and usually not too long) to get your car towed to the nearest auto or tire shop. $40-50. i believe you get free tire change service with certain insurance policies and AAA membership.

why would singaporeans get their hands dirty when the financial outlay and risk is minimal? and would they behave the same way overseas when a tow is US$250 and you gotta wait 3 hours?

For the very reason you mention later below - they are money focused and prefer to save as much as they can. Surely you must remeber the queues before the ERP gates to save $1 or so and changing the tire is like 10-15min of work at most where up to $50 can be saved. But this is not only about changing the tires. We had countless discussion on this forum about this apparent unwillingness of local guys to do DIY work. I am not trying to be mean or anything of this sort but this appears to be widely agreed observation and I don't really recall anybody denying it.

taxico wrote:i mentioned that we would see more singaporeans using pulleys if it were allowed or tolerated... because it costs about $100 or more to engage Movers. way more if stairs are involved. the locals are well known for finding creative ways to save money.

So $40-50 is cheap when it comes to the tire but $100 is very expensive when relocating? Sorry, I found it hard to believe.
Besides, hanging lights costs $30-40 a point, drilling holes, 5-20 per hole and any ape can assemble the Ikea furniture yet you always see queues in front of Ikea assembly services counter.

taxico wrote:[..]but if light weight boxes can be safely and easily manipulated up several floors by a reusable set of pulley and ropes (and bars, and such), and going by the "no harm no foul" logic, wouldn't a Moving Company opt to do this until stopped or penalized by the authorities? and if there are no laws in place to prevent such activity in the first place, would we not see more Movers "safely" pulling up items from floor to floor? if singaporean home Movers don't do this to save a buck, i would imagine plenty of Moving Company towkays would be eager to adopt it and charge an in-between rate ($10/floor with pulleys instead of $20/floor by walking).

I really doubt it for the reason I previously mentioned - it requires some preparation = it costs time and manpower. It is just not an optimal solution for most of the moving scenarios except when shortage of manpower.

taxico wrote:all lifting gear, appliances and machinery, when used for/at work, come under WHS act. the law is pretty clear on what counts and it's a very widely worded. i read up on the WHS act before getting certified as a DWD; statutory compliance (authorized examiners) are certainly required, as are the paperwork.

which brings me to assume that if raj is not being paid to do this, it may not be relevant. but surely the reason for not using pulleys go beyond uncreative singaporeans who do not (like to) DIY...?

I am a chemist and I work as a chemist. As you could imagine I can't pee at work without proper safety documentation in place. If I want to use flammable solvents in my project I need to predict and put down on paper (signed and the management approved) all possible scenarios of the risky situations that may happen and fire hazard is only one of them. Now, after work I can just go to almost any DIY shop and buy a bottle or 5 of a thinner and use it at home for cleaning or diluting paint. Is it legal? Do I need a certificate?
So no, I don't think it is any relevant.

Leaving this aside, another reason I could think about is the what is not explicitly allowed is forbidden syndrome. Singaporeans (and those living here long enough) seem pretty affected.

taxico wrote:my exposure to condos and HDB in singapore is somewhat limited. but what i DO know is, if you do not own the (entire) property, you need to get permission to move stuff into your home through unconventional methods (via windows/balconys/etc).

Yes, but the reason could be just the way of managing the risk. Every condo management is obsessed with potential sproperty damage and allowing to do something a non-standard way is the thing they fear most because they can not analyze it (legally inclusive) ad hoc.

taxico wrote:[..]when a few of the said items were moved into a strata title property (5-unit town house development, no guards, each unit nominates a member to the committee), permission was required from the committee. i assume that the same would apply when attaching a temporary lifting appliance for the movement of items from common property (say, the ground floor corridor) into private property

Again, I agree, and I think you raised an important point - Raj may need indeed a permit from the property management, but the reason could be the one just mentioned above - they would like to stay in control to manage the risk of the damage. It's not a law per se banning alternative methods, its just within the management of the specific property.

taxico wrote:i cannot imagine if i were to be caught using a pulley, even if attached well within my home, whose bylaws are actual government statutes (Sentosa 2008 Act or what not), how much dirty looks and letters i would get. and this is in a place that is, by my standards, very loosely populated and i would thus be more likely to get away with it. if not for the cameras and security patrols...

If this was within your private, separated from the common (shared) parts property, why anybody should care? If this was a shared property, there could be the reasons mentioned earlier.
taxico wrote:[..]i am implying that hanging up a potted plant somewhat permanently is the same as temporarily attaching (30 minutes?) a pulley, but the end result is likely the same - if it is likely to fall off and cause injury, it is likely to be not legal. if you get caught, you will be warned. if you are warned a few times, harsher penalties will apply.
Not legal = forbidden by the law (Statutes) - this is the part I doubt. By local management or regulation, or even HDB regulation - this, I can believe.

taxico wrote:[..]so i put to you again - if a simple non-attachable pulley, for the purposes of lifting up light weight boxes from the outside of a building, were at the very least tolerated, the locals would be using it with more regularity - especially in recent times of increased activity in the housing market.
Sorry, I am still not convinced and probably at this point we have to agree to disagree.

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Re: Looking for a Pulley system to haul stuff to the 4th flo

Postby rajagainstthemachine » Mon, 10 Nov 2014 2:04 pm

so we moved everything up including the washing machine.....

































... it was hard labour, climbing 4 floors with a 68kilo washing machine :???:
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Re: Looking for a Pulley system to haul stuff to the 4th flo

Postby ecureilx » Mon, 10 Nov 2014 5:29 pm

rajagainstthemachine wrote:so we moved everything up including the washing machine.....

































... it was hard labour, climbing 4 floors with a 68kilo washing machine :???:


Did you have time for pictures? :twisted:

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Re: Looking for a Pulley system to haul stuff to the 4th flo

Postby nakatago » Mon, 10 Nov 2014 6:10 pm

ecureilx wrote:
rajagainstthemachine wrote:so we moved everything up including the washing machine.....

... it was hard labour, climbing 4 floors with a 68kilo washing machine :???:


Did you have time for pictures? :twisted:


Should've duct-taped that lumia onto his head in absence of wearable cameras and used Cortana to take pictures. :mrgreen:

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Re: Looking for a Pulley system to haul stuff to the 4th flo

Postby rajagainstthemachine » Tue, 11 Nov 2014 11:14 am

nakatago wrote:
ecureilx wrote:
rajagainstthemachine wrote:so we moved everything up including the washing machine.....

... it was hard labour, climbing 4 floors with a 68kilo washing machine :???:


Did you have time for pictures? :twisted:


Should've duct-taped that lumia onto his head in absence of wearable cameras and used Cortana to take pictures. :mrgreen:


rofl, i will put some pics up like i said :mrgreen:
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Re: Looking for a Pulley system to haul stuff to the 4th flo

Postby NotNewbie » Wed, 12 Nov 2014 7:11 am

rajagainstthemachine wrote:... it was hard labour, climbing 4 floors with a 68kilo washing machine :???:



Hope you are not moving out any time soon :devil:

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Re: Looking for a Pulley system to haul stuff to the 4th flo

Postby rajagainstthemachine » Thu, 30 Jul 2015 3:54 pm

rajagainstthemachine wrote:
rofl, i will put some pics up like i said :mrgreen:



tadum!!
pics of the house next to mine, they are basically refurbishing it and check the guy out on the fourth floor with a pulley system..

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Re: Looking for a Pulley system to haul stuff to the 4th flo

Postby ecureilx » Thu, 30 Jul 2015 4:49 pm

rajagainstthemachine wrote:tadum!!
pics of the house next to mine, they are basically refurbishing it and check the guy out on the fourth floor with a pulley system..


probably the guy had to clear a few certifications, before he could use the pulley :P

Pick one or few of the following :D

http://wsh.ntuclearninghub.com/courses-for-workers

(PS, am not promoting NTUC, btw .. )

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Re: Looking for a Pulley system to haul stuff to the 4th flo

Postby x9200 » Thu, 30 Jul 2015 5:50 pm

rajagainstthemachine wrote:
rajagainstthemachine wrote:
rofl, i will put some pics up like i said :mrgreen:



tadum!!
pics of the house next to mine, they are basically refurbishing it and check the guy out on the fourth floor with a pulley system..

Image

Lumia 1020? Pity the window is open, we would know the location of the next gathering even without the gps record.

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Re: Looking for a Pulley system to haul stuff to the 4th floor

Postby rajagainstthemachine » Thu, 30 Jul 2015 10:33 pm

Hehehe! Its a Lumia 1020 its got a lovely camera but takes a few secs to initialize.
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Re: Looking for a Pulley system to haul stuff to the 4th floor

Postby nakatago » Fri, 31 Jul 2015 6:51 am

rajagainstthemachine wrote:Hehehe! Its a Lumia 1020 its got a lovely camera but takes a few secs to initialize.


Dayum...I didn't realize photobucket would present a nice interface to interpret EXIF data. I just clicked on the pic and it showed me a map.

By they way, from your pics, it looks like, they're just trying to lower things into a dumpster so it's not like they're avoiding damaging the load.

Speaking of moving things, I had a fridge delivered to me. On the third floor. No lift. By two guys. No trolleys. No ropes or straps. At 6 am. During winter.

Door bell woke me up, I opened the door and the two dudes were still carrying the thing.

Sometimes, you just need two strong guys willing to walk up a flight of stairs (or several).


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