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Convert existing PR from PTS to family ties?

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telegraphroad
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Convert existing PR from PTS to family ties?

Postby telegraphroad » Tue, 23 Sep 2014 5:32 pm

Was wondering if anyone had any experience trying to (or if there is even a procedure to) convert their type of PR from PTS to Family Ties?

I remember one forum user (Beppi?) referenced having done this in a post from last year. But haven't been able to find any other information. I assume that even if it were possible, it would not be wise to attempt until having held the PTS scheme PR for some time -- perhaps through at least one REP renewal. And even then, ICA would likely evaluate the family-ties PR on its own merits.

Just curious -- obviously the family ties one is a lot more flexible and allows for overseas postings, at least in theory, whilst the PTS one is quite restrictive. And yes, I am well aware that PR is meant to be used to live here. Just asking hypothetically as we may have the opportunity to be posted overseas for 2-3 years with the aim of returning here, and I would like to not lose my PR after all the struggle of obtaining it. My kids are Singaporeans, and we intend to raise them here long-term, so it would be quite problematic if I cannot return.

Any thoughts or experiences?

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PNGMK
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Re: Convert existing PR from PTS to family ties?

Postby PNGMK » Tue, 23 Sep 2014 6:18 pm

telegraphroad wrote:Was wondering if anyone had any experience trying to (or if there is even a procedure to) convert their type of PR from PTS to Family Ties?

Just curious -- obviously the family ties one is a lot more flexible and allows for overseas postings, at least in theory, whilst the PTS one is quite restrictive. And yes, I am well aware that PR is meant to be used to live here. Just asking hypothetically as we may have the opportunity to be posted overseas for 2-3 years with the aim of returning here, and I would like to not lose my PR after all the struggle of obtaining it. My kids are Singaporeans, and we intend to raise them here long-term, so it would be quite problematic if I cannot return.

Any thoughts or experiences?


What on earth makes you think that? (underlined part). I'm curious as I think my PR was family ties and I have renewed overseas before...

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Re: Convert existing PR from PTS to family ties?

Postby telegraphroad » Tue, 23 Sep 2014 7:04 pm

PNGMK wrote:
What on earth makes you think that? (underlined part). I'm curious as I think my PR was family ties and I have renewed overseas before...


Why do I think the family ties PR is more flexible when it comes to renewal? Well, in large part because you do not need to demonstrate employment in Singapore to renew it. I don't see any requirement to submit IRAS filings or employment information when renewing the family ties PR.

The PTS scheme requires all of that, as has been discussed at length. And as a result, unless you are on a temporary posting whilst working for a Singaporean company, my understanding is that renewing the PTS scheme PR while living overseas for any length of time will be difficult if not impossible. I also assume that ICA's willingness to renew PTS while on an overseas posting for a Singaporean company does not extend forever -- there is likely a limit as to how long you can be gone.

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Postby Wd40 » Tue, 23 Sep 2014 7:17 pm

In my understanding. The PTS, Family ties etc are just "means" of getting the PR. Once you get the PR all are the same. There are no subcategories like in EP. There may be some differences like when it comes to REP renewal or whether they call you for NS etc but inherently there is no category maintained so there is no question of moving from one category to another.

The only thing that can be closely related is during the time of REP renewal if you are no longer employed and hence do not qualify for having your PR on the original basis of PTS, if you prove that you have family ties here, you may get a renewal on that basis.
Last edited by Wd40 on Tue, 23 Sep 2014 7:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby telegraphroad » Tue, 23 Sep 2014 7:19 pm

Wd40 wrote:In my understanding. The PTS, Family ties etc are just "means" of getting the PR. Once you get the PR all are the same. There are no subcategories like in EP. There may be some differences like when it comes to REP renewal or whether they call you for NS etc but inherently there is no category maintained so there is no question of moving from one category to another.


Unfortunately, your understanding is incorrect. ICA's own web site regarding renewal of REP, makes very clear that those PRs granted under PTS scheme have different requirements for REP renewal than those granted under family ties. Please see here: http://www.ica.gov.sg/page.aspx?pageid=152

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Postby Wd40 » Tue, 23 Sep 2014 7:32 pm

I know I read that, which is why I mentioned during REP renewal you will need to prove that you have family ties to keep your PR if you are unemployed and want to renew your REP.

I don't think there is way to convert from PTS to family ties, just like that. Even in case of EP, you cannot just move from one category to another, as per your wish. Its only when you apply for new EP, there is a possibility of category change.

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Postby ecureilx » Tue, 23 Sep 2014 7:58 pm

telegraphroad wrote:...


regardless what category your PR was awarded, prolonged absence from Singapore now = dicey when renewing REP. that's as of now ....

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Postby PNGMK » Wed, 24 Sep 2014 9:15 am

It's the usual Singapore thing... not exactly clear as mud. I don't even know which category my PR was under (back then it wasn't split up).

1. IF you're a spouse of an SC you need to prove you still are.

2. IF not you need to prove economic support is in place.

No switching. HOWEVER I believe that SMS and I managed to obtain 10 year SPR renewals by showing (as I did in 2007) that I had a SC spouse AND I had economic support (a letter from employer) - the lady actually asked me if I had a letter from my employer and said it would give me an extra 5 years.

When I last renewed outside Singapore it was in 1997 and I had a SC spouse who attended the SPR renewal with me in Shanghai - the CG just looked at us and stamped it - not a lot of questions back then. In 2002 when I renewed I was not working in Singapore but I still had a SC spouse and I had proof of income from an Australian employer WHO WAS OWNED BY STE!

My view is on par with Telegrah - if you have an SC spouse - REP renewal WILL be easier - if you don't (i.e. lost one in a divorce or you're PTS) you will need proof of economic support and probably economic ties to Singapore to be away for more than a few years.... a job with an MNC or Statutory company that post you out of Singapore sounds plausible. Living in India because of 'constraints' doesn't.

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Postby beppi » Thu, 25 Sep 2014 10:35 pm

You cannot convert PR from PTS to Family Ties.
On renewal of your REP, ICA will take into consideration ALL aspects of your ties to Singapore (this includes family ties and employment) and will grant the REP only if they are convinced that you have a long-term commitment to Singapore.
I received this explanation from an ICA officer (verbally).
Obviously, having a SC spouse and children (but currently living abroad) is stronger in this respect than having worked in Singapore in the past (but currently living abroad).

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Postby telegraphroad » Mon, 29 Sep 2014 1:08 pm

beppi wrote:You cannot convert PR from PTS to Family Ties.


Interesting. Because in another thread entitled "overseas PR renewal," you yourself wrote the following:

beppi wrote:A PR based on work (PTS scheme) can only renew his REP if the he is working in Singapore at the time of renewal.
I got this information directly from an ICA officer a few months ago. (Luckily I could convert my PR to family ties scheme and the REP was renewed.)


So. Which is the truth?

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Postby PNGMK » Mon, 29 Sep 2014 2:58 pm

telegraphroad wrote:
beppi wrote:You cannot convert PR from PTS to Family Ties.


Interesting. Because in another thread entitled "overseas PR renewal," you yourself wrote the following:

beppi wrote:A PR based on work (PTS scheme) can only renew his REP if the he is working in Singapore at the time of renewal.
I got this information directly from an ICA officer a few months ago. (Luckily I could convert my PR to family ties scheme and the REP was renewed.)


So. Which is the truth?


Heh.....

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Postby beppi » Mon, 29 Sep 2014 3:25 pm

Yes, I should have been more precise:
When I first asked ICA about the consequences of moving abroad, they said that a PR by PTS scheme has to stay (and preferably work) in Singapore at the time of REP renewal.
When the time for renewal came and I was actually staying abroad, I asked again, indicating that I am married to a citizen and would like to have the chance to send my (also citizen) daughter to the Singaporean education system later on. ICA replied that they will automatically take both work and family situation into consideration. My REP was subsequently renewed, which I took as indication that family ties now dominate PTS in my PR - but there has never been an official conversion (and neither could one apply for such).
Sorry for being unclear in my previous posts.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Mon, 29 Sep 2014 3:48 pm

That question was answered the same way for me many years ago at my first renewal as well, as I was qualified for both the PTS and Family Ties. I was also told that both would be taken into consideration and the stronger would be the basis for both renewal and original issuance of PR (where an original applicant is qualified for both PTS & Family Ties).

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Postby telegraphroad » Mon, 29 Sep 2014 8:30 pm

@beppi: thanks for clarifying. very helpful.

@sms: thanks as well for the helpful info.


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