Singapore Expats Forum

Caste Systems, Segregation and Subjugation

Discuss about the latest news & interesting topics, real life experience or other out of topic discussions with locals & expatriates in Singapore.

User avatar
JR8
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 16514
Joined: Wed, 24 Mar 2010
Location: K. Puki Manis

Postby JR8 » Mon, 08 Sep 2014 9:15 pm

Wd40 wrote:EU did have slavery
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serfdom
I still remember my history teacher teaching us about the famous quote "If they don't have bread, let them eat cake"


The EU, in even it's earliest precursors did not exist prior to 1950.

Serfdom, a part of a medieval hierarchy was in no way akin to slavery.

I love the 'let them eat cake analogy' you suggest, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Let_them_eat_cake . The French Revolution etc. Why the French 'are all equal' these days, and most of the talent have left for London for a career and future free of égalité :)

User avatar
Strong Eagle
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 10831
Joined: Sat, 10 Jul 2004
Location: Off The Red Dot
Contact:

Postby Strong Eagle » Mon, 08 Sep 2014 9:28 pm

Wd40 wrote:EU did have slavery

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serfdom

I still remember my history teacher teaching us about the famous quote "If they don't have bread, let them eat cake"


Again, I question your "mis"-understanding of history. Yes, in one sense the feudal system created an underclass of people that were essentially slaves but you miss the essential difference between modern day slavery and the feudal systems.

Feudal systems existed in both Europe, Egypt, India and Asia, particularly China. They arose as a way that the strongest of warring factions could effectively assert control over all the warring factions by granting them exclusive rights over territories, resources, and people. The page you cited makes reference to same. So, yes, the people were essentially treated like slaves but were not like true forms of slavery, like...

From the earliest times in recorded history conquered people were forced into slavery, the women raped and forced to have children, partly to supply labor for the winning party and partly to ensure that the the conquered society was watered down and destroyed. But, this is again different from...

Modern slavery - the practice of capturing people against their will, removing their rights, and forcing them to work for others against their will. While the USA is perhaps the most famous example, it's by no means the only one, including South Africa and Australia. The UK banned slavery in the British Empire (completely by 1843).

Slavery is still rampant in the world today, focused in India, Asia, and Eastern Europe primarily. However, sex slavery is also rampant in South and Central America, with women being brought to the US, along with those from China and Easter Europe. Houston is the common gateway.

User avatar
x9200
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 9301
Joined: Mon, 07 Sep 2009
Location: Singapore

Postby x9200 » Tue, 09 Sep 2014 7:07 am

proxymoron wrote:And what baffles me is the selective blindness of white west, when it comes to anything other than holocaust. 85million people died in the World War II, including 2million Indians. 200k people were burnt to ashes in a minute by the atomic bomb, something which affected those who were even yet to be born. Still the western media thinks that it was all about holocaust and 6million jews by the "RACIST" nazi Germany.

This is I believe a part of some wider sociological phenomena, similar or very same when it comes to reporting disasters/catastrophes with multiple victims. You can see it on daily basis all around the world. Do Indians really care about the Ebola victims (number of) in Africa beyond the point that it may spread and affect them? Similarly, when an European hears about a building collapse in India killing 50 people it has no near same impact to her/him as if this building was in Amsterdam. People tend to empathize with people who they know better (share the same culture) so I don't really think it is a White West blindness. It's universal.

PS, Nagasaki/Hiroshima, I think it is well covered by the "White West". 2 million Indians - not really.

User avatar
Strong Eagle
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 10831
Joined: Sat, 10 Jul 2004
Location: Off The Red Dot
Contact:

Postby Strong Eagle » Tue, 09 Sep 2014 7:48 am

proxymoron wrote:And what baffles me is the selective blindness of white west, when it comes to anything other than holocaust. 85million people died in the World War II, including 2million Indians. 200k people were burnt to ashes in a minute by the atomic bomb, something which affected those who were even yet to be born. Still the western media thinks that it was all about holocaust and 6million jews by the "RACIST" nazi Germany.

80years of slavery on blacks in US, 3000 years of slavery on Dalits in India.. am I suggesting that these are greater issues than Nazi camps? Yes I am.


It's not a case of selective blindness. 200K persons were burned to death in the atomic bombs... more than 100K were killed in Dresden as a result of the fire bombing. Casualties of war.

2 million Indians died. Casualties of war.

Millions of Russians died, the largest number of deaths, by far, of any country involved in the war. Casualties of war.

6 million Jews were systematically exterminated... no, they weren't bombed, they didn't die fighting... they were rounded up and shot, gassed, tortured, experimented upon... you damn right it was a RACIST Nazi Germany that did this... the extermination of a group of people from the globe was the Nazis goal. Big difference.

User avatar
x9200
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 9301
Joined: Mon, 07 Sep 2009
Location: Singapore

Postby x9200 » Tue, 09 Sep 2014 8:44 am

Very good point SE.

What also should be realized is how different populations were affected and this is not really about the absolute numbers. Over 50% (average) of the total population of the European Jews have been killed. The whole pre-WWII Jewish culture was completely wiped out. It is like a different world being an integral part of most European cities disappeared within these few years and it was never restored. Now take India's population and measure it up to this 50%. Could you really compare these 2 millions casualties to the situation when 50% of India population would be exterminated? I don't think it would be a fair comparison.
And this 50% is and average. See this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_ ... ish_deaths

In some countries they managed to kill close to 90% of the Jewish population.
It is like you live in Singapore and within 5y any Indian or a person suspect to be one is killed. From ~550k you go down to 55k. Can you even imagine this? So better be careful with some quick judgmental comparisons.

User avatar
proxymoron
Regular
Regular
Posts: 99
Joined: Sat, 15 Oct 2011

Postby proxymoron » Tue, 09 Sep 2014 9:31 am

@ x9200 , Strong Eagle

Well, I partially agree with your arguments about systematic extermination being one of the worst deeds mankind has done.

But I will have argue against showing up Jews as the only victim. May be it is 'sociological phenomena' said earlier by x9200. For me, Jews were not the only ones whose culture was wiped out. Whole South America had their culture wiped out by European conquistadors. Same happened here closer to home, to Philippines. And where is the native American culture now?

Also there are things which 'sociological phenomena' dont explain, like Holodomor. The body count was more, it was all European affairs but I hardly hear anyone putting that along with Holocaust. Was it because it was not as structured and mechanised as latter?
Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgement.

User avatar
proxymoron
Regular
Regular
Posts: 99
Joined: Sat, 15 Oct 2011

Postby proxymoron » Tue, 09 Sep 2014 9:38 am

ecureilx wrote: if Japan had surrendered are you saying the A bomb would still have been dropped?


No and Yes

No, probably not on Japan
Yes, A bomb would have been dropped on another country. And all I got to say is lucky Vietnamese

JR8 wrote:What has the 'USA' got to do with me beyond ...er nothing?

Lol, no I dont think US is part of EU and I dont have anything against US. I like US :kiss:
I was just answering back to 'modern nation' and '1700' reference. USA was indeed a modern nation back in 50s.
Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgement.

User avatar
Strong Eagle
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 10831
Joined: Sat, 10 Jul 2004
Location: Off The Red Dot
Contact:

Postby Strong Eagle » Tue, 09 Sep 2014 9:58 am

proxymoron wrote:@ x9200 , Strong Eagle

Well, I partially agree with your arguments about systematic extermination being one of the worst deeds mankind has done.

But I will have argue against showing up Jews as the only victim. May be it is 'sociological phenomena' said earlier by x9200. For me, Jews were not the only ones whose culture was wiped out. Whole South America had their culture wiped out by European conquistadors. Same happened here closer to home, to Philippines. And where is the native American culture now?

Also there are things which 'sociological phenomena' dont explain, like Holodomor. The body count was more, it was all European affairs but I hardly hear anyone putting that along with Holocaust. Was it because it was not as structured and mechanised as latter?


Here's why things like the Holocaust must be kept in the forefront as an example of genocidal extermination.

a) Pol Pot killed about 2 million of his countrymen in Cambodia and no one did anything.

b) China killed millions in several Mao purges, including the atrocities of the gang of four.

c) There is no question that European conquerors wiped out many native people in South America... and it is worth remembering that this happened in a different time, where the entire world view about things was different.

d) The majority of Americans still live in a "Cowboys and Indians" mentality, not yet aware of the genocide that occurred on our own continent, and still not yet willing to acknowledge the same. We've got a lot of work to do.

User avatar
x9200
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 9301
Joined: Mon, 07 Sep 2009
Location: Singapore

Postby x9200 » Tue, 09 Sep 2014 10:13 am

proxymoron wrote:@ x9200 , Strong Eagle

Well, I partially agree with your arguments about systematic extermination being one of the worst deeds mankind has done.

But I will have argue against showing up Jews as the only victim. May be it is 'sociological phenomena' said earlier by x9200. For me, Jews were not the only ones whose culture was wiped out. Whole South America had their culture wiped out by European conquistadors. Same happened here closer to home, to Philippines. And where is the native American culture now?

Also there are things which 'sociological phenomena' dont explain, like Holodomor. The body count was more, it was all European affairs but I hardly hear anyone putting that along with Holocaust. Was it because it was not as structured and mechanised as latter?


I think it is because we are talking about different, specific topic areas. You brought up the Holocaust reporting discrepancy and it was addressed. It was pointed out why in this specific case this 6 million number is significant and is being frequently reported when the discussion is on the WWII.
Holocaust is also more universally specific. Nothing like this actually ever happened before and after. Using the same analogy again, it would be like the gov decided one day to kill all the Indians and started to do it systematically. It was a state empowered and executed extermination just because somebody belonged to a specific ethnic group.

Also, I don't think anybody serious enough should try to make an absolute all over the history comparison of who killed who, why and whether it was fair. I don't think it makes any sense. For that reason I found sort of weird this arguments on slavery or feudal system. The history is densely populated by various more and less direct butchers of all possible ethnicities and nationalities.

User avatar
JR8
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 16514
Joined: Wed, 24 Mar 2010
Location: K. Puki Manis

Postby JR8 » Tue, 09 Sep 2014 10:16 am

proxymoron wrote:@And where is the native American culture now?


Where is the culture of Australopithecus?

proxymoron wrote:Whole South America had their culture wiped out by European conquistadors.


If you'd been you wouldn't make a claim as ill-informed as that. The 'South American culture' is alive and well in the countries I've visited, Bolivia and Peru. Where was it wiped out? Brazil is loosely similar to India in some ways, a mix of native Indian (i.e. Indios) and European genes.

The aryan-like 'high class' attributes in the highest Indian castes came from Europe. Starting with the Vikings, example: http://www.strangehistory.net/2010/08/2 ... ng-sweden/, and followed on by Alexander the Great and his armies http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_cam ... _the_Great



.... side-note:
'An American Indian woman may have been the first native American to set foot on European soil, brought to Iceland by the Vikings'
www.dailygalaxy.com/.../-dna-reveals-vi ... urope.html

User avatar
proxymoron
Regular
Regular
Posts: 99
Joined: Sat, 15 Oct 2011

Postby proxymoron » Tue, 09 Sep 2014 11:50 am

x9200 wrote:Holocaust is also more universally specific. Nothing like this actually ever happened before and after. Using the same analogy again, it would be like the gov decided one day to kill all the Indians and started to do it systematically. It was a state empowered and executed extermination just because somebody belonged to a specific ethnic group.



The Holodomor ("Extermination by hunger" or "Hunger-extermination"; "to kill by starvation") was a famine in the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic in 1932 and 1933 that killed up to about 10 million Ukrainians according to Stanislav Kulchytsky. During the famine, which is also known as the "Terror-Famine in Ukraine" and "Famine-Genocide in Ukraine",millions of citizens of the Ukrainian SSR, the majority of whom were Ukrainians, died of starvation in a peacetime catastrophe unprecedented in the history of Ukraine. Since 2006, the Holodomor has been recognized by the independent Ukraine and several other countries as a genocide of the Ukrainian people

It would be more appropriate to say 'nothing like that ever "reported" before or after holocaust. The Ukranian one happened just few years before the Holocaust, not during any war time. Like I said earlier, what irks me is the over reaction when someone is talked about Holocaust in the same sentence as other misdeeds by men, after all history is full of butcheries happened to people in all ethinicities. And underlying emotion of Holocaust, Slavery and Indian caste syste (to certain extent) is all same - 'Racism' or its by product.[/i]
Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgement.

User avatar
x9200
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 9301
Joined: Mon, 07 Sep 2009
Location: Singapore

Postby x9200 » Tue, 09 Sep 2014 12:52 pm

Ukrainians were targeted because of the reasons of nationalism (as seen by the Soviet Union). So the reason was to wipe out the nation that was not happy under the Soviet ruling and may interfere with it. If this was a different SU nation with different ethnic groups this genocide might have happened too.
Holocaust had no pragmatic reasons. It happened just because the Nazis believed the Jews were the race that competed directly with the Aryan uber race. It was pure race based extermination.

User avatar
proxymoron
Regular
Regular
Posts: 99
Joined: Sat, 15 Oct 2011

Postby proxymoron » Tue, 09 Sep 2014 1:20 pm

JR8 wrote:Where is the culture of Australopithecus?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Andamanese_people
Those (or similar ones) are still out there my friend. Do you want to bring democracy to them also?

JR8 wrote:If you'd been you wouldn't make a claim as ill-informed as that. The 'South American culture' is alive and well in the countries I've visited, Bolivia and Peru. Where was it wiped out?


:D :D Thats kind of funny. Because it looks like you are trying to say that not ALL were killed. There are few who managed to survive, so culture is intact. I have not been to South America, but I am pretty sure that most countries there are Catholic and there are not many traditions which dates back more than few 100years.

JR8 wrote:An American Indian woman may have been the first native American to set foot on European soil, brought to Iceland by the Vikings

Sounds strange to me. So what did the Christopher Colombus really do? He could have got all the info from Vikings.
Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgement.

User avatar
JR8
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 16514
Joined: Wed, 24 Mar 2010
Location: K. Puki Manis

Postby JR8 » Tue, 09 Sep 2014 4:07 pm

proxymoron wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Andamanese_people
Those (or similar ones) are still out there my friend.


A foolish statement


proxymoron wrote:Do you want to bring democracy to them also?


Another foolish statement


proxymoron wrote: :D :D Thats kind of funny. Because it looks like you are trying to say that not ALL were killed. There are few who managed to survive, so culture is intact.


And another


proxymoron wrote:I have not been to South America, but I am pretty sure that most countries there are Catholic and there are not many traditions which dates back more than few 100years.


It is self-evident that you have not been, as if you had you would be unlikely to claim that which you are. Your statements rely upon being 'pretty sure', but that's not enough to be factually correct.


proxymoron wrote:Sounds strange to me. So what did the Christopher Colombus really do? He could have got all the info from Vikings.


Are you drunk? :???:

User avatar
zzm9980
Governor
Governor
Posts: 6837
Joined: Wed, 06 Jul 2011
Location: Once more unto the breach

Postby zzm9980 » Tue, 09 Sep 2014 11:52 pm

proxymoron wrote:
JR8 wrote:An American Indian woman may have been the first native American to set foot on European soil, brought to Iceland by the Vikings

Sounds strange to me. So what did the Christopher Colombus really do? He could have got all the info from Vikings.


i no rite ?! he cud hav gon 2 wikipeedia and red wat e vikings posted lulz


  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post

Return to “General Discussions”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest