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rajagainstthemachine
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Postby rajagainstthemachine » Fri, 01 Aug 2014 1:51 pm

walking upto the front door of a billion dollar corporation and telling them you need to hire a certain Mr. Boon tat hing or Mr. Sivaramakrishnan MBA P.R ,Sc Honors because of our FCF policy, I think the corporation in question is likely to show them their Finger this policy in return.
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Postby Wd40 » Fri, 01 Aug 2014 1:52 pm

gailwynand wrote:Honestly, if this means the IT body shops are on their way out, good riddance. It's not like these are attracting "high quality" migrants anyway and it really makes no sense for back office IT to be in Singapore.

For those who have real skills and not commodity level IT expertise I'm still not seeing a problem.


The global banks have already moved whatever they could(plucked the low hanging fruits, so to speak). They did this for cost reasons. What is remaining here, is mainly due to MAS regulations or regulations from other bodies, they cannot move certain process to low cost countries like India, due to data secrecy issues etc. But its only a matter of time before these get sorted out and the processes move.

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Postby JR8 » Fri, 01 Aug 2014 2:22 pm

ecureilx wrote: you mean like directly or indirectly penalizing poor half educated guys marrying poorer Vietnam / Thai girls ...?? as used to happen years ago ...'


Another version might be:
'You mean like directly or indirectly penalizing gays, just because the Ruler apparently has a thing about them ...'

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Postby Primrose Hill » Fri, 01 Aug 2014 2:34 pm


bgd
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Postby bgd » Fri, 01 Aug 2014 2:35 pm

Pretty hard to find decent Sg graduates for IT roles. Plenty of Chinese and Indian candidates, all from Sg universties.

The Sgs that do get to me (last stage of a graduate recruitment program) are pretty good and generally get hired. NS makes a big difference.

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Postby myprhui » Fri, 01 Aug 2014 2:39 pm

rajagainstthemachine wrote:walking upto the front door of a billion dollar corporation and telling them you need to hire a certain Mr. Boon tat hing or Mr. Sivaramakrishnan MBA P.R ,Sc Honors because of our FCF policy, I think the corporation in question is likely to show them their Finger this policy in return.


MOM is not working alone and they are definitely not stupid. They will partner with the specific government authorities in those industries e.g. IDA, MAS to work with the blacklisted companies. If you are a bank, will you dare to show the finger to MAS?

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Postby myprhui » Fri, 01 Aug 2014 2:45 pm

Wd40 wrote:
gailwynand wrote:Honestly, if this means the IT body shops are on their way out, good riddance. It's not like these are attracting "high quality" migrants anyway and it really makes no sense for back office IT to be in Singapore.

For those who have real skills and not commodity level IT expertise I'm still not seeing a problem.


The global banks have already moved whatever they could(plucked the low hanging fruits, so to speak). They did this for cost reasons. What is remaining here, is mainly due to MAS regulations or regulations from other bodies, they cannot move certain process to low cost countries like India, due to data secrecy issues etc. But its only a matter of time before these get sorted out and the processes move.


Banks are constantly changing and restructuring especially foreign banks with their bases in US and Europe. These are not necessarily related to the FCF or the new labour regulations. Singapore is international city and major financial hub in Asia and there are few cities in this part of the world which can rival its current status. Hong Kong has major flaws which makes it a less ideal location for expats as compared to Singapore.

I do believe the government is doing all these partially to appease the angry local folks but they are implementing all these with a good level of confidence.

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Postby rajagainstthemachine » Fri, 01 Aug 2014 3:01 pm

myprhui wrote: Singapore is international city and major financial hub in Asia and there are few cities in this part of the world which can rival its current status. Hong Kong has major flaws which makes it a less ideal location for expats as compared to Singapore.

I do believe the government is doing all these partially to appease the angry local folks but they are implementing all these with a good level of confidence.


Yes Singapore is an International city no doubt, but I don't think other major cities in Asia are lagging behind, with Bangkok,KL, Jakarta, HK, Manilla are all in one way or another lucrative and the combined forces of all these developing cities can prove quite attractive for companies to set up base and the talent pool is obviously better than in Singapore.
May I ask, what major flaw does HK have compared to Singapore?
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Postby myprhui » Fri, 01 Aug 2014 3:14 pm

I have worked in Hong Kong for a few months. Full expat packages are a thing of the past. Communication is a pain in everyday interactions because I can speak neither Cantonese or Mandarin. Please do not expect all Hong Kongers to speak good, simple English. The rental there is exorbitant and the housing quality is below average if you compare it with Singapore. I have two kids and I will really prefer the education system here. Overall, for an expat with family, Singapore will still scored much better as compared to any of those cities that you have just mentioned.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Fri, 01 Aug 2014 3:18 pm

I think you might find some differences of opinion on this board.

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Postby myprhui » Fri, 01 Aug 2014 3:31 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:I think you might find some differences of opinion on this board.


Of course. I am sure not everyone will agree with me. Overall, in my opinion I will just say that this FCF stuff is a good thing. I never believed in true meritocracy. Every system requires some level of controls. The government is just tuning the system to ensure that Singaporeans will always remain as the ultimate beneficiaries. EPs and PRs are still being issued but to a much smaller pool of people and at a much slower rate. The EP population has been decreasing over the past 1-2 years and I will definitely expect that trend to continue.

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Postby myprhui » Fri, 01 Aug 2014 3:40 pm

bgd wrote:Pretty hard to find decent Sg graduates for IT roles. Plenty of Chinese and Indian candidates, all from Sg universties.

The Sgs that do get to me (last stage of a graduate recruitment program) are pretty good and generally get hired. NS makes a big difference.


Agreed and which is why the labour crunch will continue as companies continue to seek out Singaporeans and while reducing the hiring of foreigners. I believe we will see a major change in recruitment and HR strategy.

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Postby Wd40 » Fri, 01 Aug 2014 4:50 pm

myprhui wrote:
Wd40 wrote:
gailwynand wrote:Honestly, if this means the IT body shops are on their way out, good riddance. It's not like these are attracting "high quality" migrants anyway and it really makes no sense for back office IT to be in Singapore.

For those who have real skills and not commodity level IT expertise I'm still not seeing a problem.


The global banks have already moved whatever they could(plucked the low hanging fruits, so to speak). They did this for cost reasons. What is remaining here, is mainly due to MAS regulations or regulations from other bodies, they cannot move certain process to low cost countries like India, due to data secrecy issues etc. But its only a matter of time before these get sorted out and the processes move.


Banks are constantly changing and restructuring especially foreign banks with their bases in US and Europe. These are not necessarily related to the FCF or the new labour regulations. Singapore is international city and major financial hub in Asia and there are few cities in this part of the world which can rival its current status. Hong Kong has major flaws which makes it a less ideal location for expats as compared to Singapore.

I do believe the government is doing all these partially to appease the angry local folks but they are implementing all these with a good level of confidence.


I agree with you. My reply was specific to Gailwynand about back office IT.
Most of back office IT for global banks was set up here because, the cost were low a decade back. These jobs have nothing to do with Singapore business and they probably support NY, Zurich or London business etc.

These jobs will all eventually move to another low cost and attractive country. Singapore will continue to have back office IT jobs, but only those that are related to Singapore or APAC region. Eventually Singapore will become a high wage location just like London, Sydney or Melbourne and just like those locations, jobs here will cater to local businesses only.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Fri, 01 Aug 2014 5:04 pm

Actually, what you are going to see is a shifting offshore of a lot of stuff, or the entire MNC to different locations who actually want the businesses, which Singapore feels they can now do without. *snicker*.

You cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, as the old saying goes. You cannot force an MNC to hire substandard locals to reduce their productivity and still satisfy their stockholders. Therefore they will go to where they can. They can easily shift somewhere else, just like they did when they shifted here. Any HR person thinking otherwise is deluding themselves. There are large SMEs who are also having problems and they will probably wind up or if they are suppliers to MNC, will follow them if they want to stay in business. When that starts happening, there will be high unemployment here among locals. When once foreign PMET leaves, if that department is closed down or shifted out, all the locals working under him/her will be unemployed.

We've reduced our staff strength from a maximum of 225 18 months ago to 134 as of today. Between the reduction of quotas and the inability to recruit and keep local staff, we are taking a beating. We have more work than we have bodies capable of doing said work. We are actually turning work away and have given up at least one large government contract we can no longer staff as we cannot get help.

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Postby myprhui » Fri, 01 Aug 2014 6:15 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:Actually, what you are going to see is a shifting offshore of a lot of stuff, or the entire MNC to different locations who actually want the businesses, which Singapore feels they can now do without. *snicker*.

You cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, as the old saying goes. You cannot force an MNC to hire substandard locals to reduce their productivity and still satisfy their stockholders. Therefore they will go to where they can. They can easily shift somewhere else, just like they did when they shifted here. Any HR person thinking otherwise is deluding themselves. There are large SMEs who are also having problems and they will probably wind up or if they are suppliers to MNC, will follow them if they want to stay in business. When that starts happening, there will be high unemployment here among locals. When once foreign PMET leaves, if that department is closed down or shifted out, all the locals working under him/her will be unemployed.

We've reduced our staff strength from a maximum of 225 18 months ago to 134 as of today. Between the reduction of quotas and the inability to recruit and keep local staff, we are taking a beating. We have more work than we have bodies capable of doing said work. We are actually turning work away and have given up at least one large government contract we can no longer staff as we cannot get help.


Which sector are you operating in? Have you tried to raise your concerns to the ministry or through the chambers? I know that they are controlling the EPs and promoting employment for Singaporeans but companies with good HR practices or Singaporean PMET ratios should be allowed to expand their staff strength as long as they maintain the right Singaporean foreigner balance. I am a hiring manager in my company and I have actually attended one of those close doors FCF/MOM meetings. Those blokes from MOM seem to be quite receptive towards some of our feedbacks.

This new FCD unit is also picking up "bad" employers on a case by case basis. They should also start listening to the concerns of "good" employers in the same manner.


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