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Singapore citizen and British citizen ?

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sundaymorningstaple
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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Thu, 24 Jul 2014 1:09 pm

I think maybe this is what Beeroclock might be referring to....

http://www.comparativeconstitutions.org ... -14th.html

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Postby zzm9980 » Thu, 24 Jul 2014 1:15 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:I think maybe this is what Beeroclock might be referring to....

http://www.comparativeconstitutions.org ... -14th.html


Right, so just a random blog on the Internet. You can (for better or worse) find one of those talking about anything at all. I thought he meant there was actual congressional debate (beyond tea party or fox news posturing).

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Postby JR8 » Thu, 24 Jul 2014 2:00 pm

Strong Eagle wrote:In the beginning, anybody in the British empire could become a citizen and move to the UK at will. ... ...


Wow, I never knew that. But it in part explains how parts of England have become Colonial enclaves (Notting Hill = W. Indian,/ The Midlands are Sub-continental etc).

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Postby PNGMK » Thu, 24 Jul 2014 2:40 pm

JR8 wrote:
Strong Eagle wrote:In the beginning, anybody in the British empire could become a citizen and move to the UK at will. ... ...


Wow, I never knew that. But it in part explains how parts of England have become Colonial enclaves (Notting Hill = W. Indian,/ The Midlands are Sub-continental etc).


I can still remember the lines at PP control in the UK for "Commonwealth Citizens" - we were pretty much waved through. Now it's "So you're an Aussie over here to steal jobs hey?".

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Postby Beeroclock » Thu, 24 Jul 2014 3:49 pm

zzm9980 wrote:
Beeroclock wrote:I thought the US is one of (the only?) "developed" country that still grants citizenship by virtue of being born there, and even they are reviewing if they should keep this (perhaps due to people abusing the system, travelling there heavily pregnant etc).


Any real source for this? Or just something you read on the Internet? I live in the US and follow "Immigration Reform" rather closely and have heard of no such thing.

Edit to add: I mean, it's the 14th amendment to the US Constitution. Those don't change very often even with a functional Congress, let alone the circus we've had lately. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteenth ... nstitution


No serious source and it really wasn't meant to be the point of that post... which was reacting to JR8's struggle to reconcile "how you can be born abroad and still be British. " , which I in turn was struggling to reconcile...

I could understand from US perspective where citizenship is connected directly to being born on US soil (and therefore logically you might question how someone born abroad could still be American).

But I didn't see the logic for a Brit or Australian, where being born on the soil doesn't automatically give rise to citizenship. e.g. We never thought twice having our kids abroad and that they would be Australians (having both parents born in Australia).

FWIW I actually like the US approach, in the sense that each child will have a special connection/allegiance to the country where they're born.

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Postby Strong Eagle » Thu, 24 Jul 2014 9:15 pm

aster wrote:Since you were born in the UK before 1 Jan, 1983, your kids are automatically British citizens by descent. Keep in mind though that you might need to do some "future planning" in order for your kids' kids to be UK nationals as well - in other words their kids will need to be born in the UK to automatically become citizens.


Almost. The grandchildren could also be foreign born and obtain citizenship by right of descent IF the children lived in the UK for at least 3 years prior to having your grandchildren.

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Postby Strong Eagle » Thu, 24 Jul 2014 9:37 pm

Types of British Nationality

British Citizen - right of work and abode in the UK

British overseas territories citizen - can have British passport but subject to immigration control and no EU benefits

British overseas citizen - can have British passport but subject to immigration control and no EU benefits

British subject - rare - can have British passport but subject to immigration control and no EU benefits

British national (overseas) - a Hong Kong derivative - can have British passport but subject to immigration control and no EU benefits

British protected person - can have British passport but subject to immigration control and no EU benefits

https://www.gov.uk/types-of-british-nat ... y/overview

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Postby aster » Thu, 24 Jul 2014 10:00 pm

Strong Eagle wrote:
aster wrote:Since you were born in the UK before 1 Jan, 1983, your kids are automatically British citizens by descent. Keep in mind though that you might need to do some "future planning" in order for your kids' kids to be UK nationals as well - in other words their kids will need to be born in the UK to automatically become citizens.


Almost. The grandchildren could also be foreign born and obtain citizenship by right of descent IF the children lived in the UK for at least 3 years prior to having your grandchildren.


I haven't looked into that but this would be quite similar to the Australian model where a citizen by descent can pass on their citizenship as long as they have been in Australia for at least 2 years (in total). In this case it's even easier as it's literally counting all days spent in Australia, even as a tourist. :)

Also, laws can change at any time, so this is not a sure thing when it comes to how things will be once the kids have their own kids. Probably best to plan on being in the UK at the time and then alleviating the next generation of the obligation to do so (or have to meet any residency criteria at the time).

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Postby aster » Thu, 24 Jul 2014 10:10 pm

Strong Eagle wrote:Types of British Nationality

British Citizen - right of work and abode in the UK

British overseas territories citizen - can have British passport but subject to immigration control and no EU benefits

British overseas citizen - can have British passport but subject to immigration control and no EU benefits

British subject - rare - can have British passport but subject to immigration control and no EU benefits

British national (overseas) - a Hong Kong derivative - can have British passport but subject to immigration control and no EU benefits

British protected person - can have British passport but subject to immigration control and no EU benefits

https://www.gov.uk/types-of-british-nat ... y/overview


Those from the Channel Islands have an interesting status - probably one of the above - whereby they are British citizens but not EU nationals.

France, on the other hand, treats most of its overseas territories as if they were part of... France. So you could be on some island off the coast of Africa or in the Caribbean, and the EU flag will be waving and the Euro currency will be accepted, and when there you will technically be standing on EU territory. Even on Euro currency you can see the map of Europe on the reverse side and then there are separate pictures of all (far-away) islands that are treated as part of the EU. :)

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Postby JR8 » Thu, 24 Jul 2014 10:33 pm

Same way a person can fling themselves from Suriname (that's a bonkers Marxist country in South America) across the border into neighbouring Guyana, a Dutch colony, and then be instantly eligible to all EU benefits....

Great eh?

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Postby aster » Thu, 24 Jul 2014 10:51 pm

Probably easier to hop onto a raft in Northern Africa and hope that the Maltese or Italian coast guard comes to the rescue.

Personally I think Australia took the right approach with regards to this. There is no better deterrent imo.

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Postby zzm9980 » Thu, 24 Jul 2014 11:58 pm

I don't personally understand the logic in all of those different types of British 'citizenship'. It seems you just need "British Citizen" and a "We'll give you a passport, but please don't hop a flight into London and try to get one of those free houses JR8 likes to rant about..." :)

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Postby aster » Fri, 25 Jul 2014 12:56 am

It's mostly to do with external territories that rely on the UK for everything from defence to other international representation but at the same time want to pretend that they're... independent.

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Postby Strong Eagle » Fri, 25 Jul 2014 3:01 am

zzm9980 wrote:I don't personally understand the logic in all of those different types of British 'citizenship'. It seems you just need "British Citizen" and a "We'll give you a passport, but please don't hop a flight into London and try to get one of those free houses JR8 likes to rant about..." :)


Principally done to ensure that changes to British nationality law (intended to majorly cut down on those with the right of abode) don't leave anyone stateless. The British overseas territories citizen is handed out to people living in British colonies... Gibraltar, Pitcairn Islands, Bermuda, etc.

A couple of the nationality classifications relate to Hong Kong, while the British Subject classification exists only if you didn't end up with citizenship in a Commonwealth country after 1983.

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Postby JR8 » Fri, 25 Jul 2014 9:12 am

zzm9980 wrote:I don't personally understand the logic in all of those different types of British 'citizenship'. It seems you just need "British Citizen" and a "We'll give you a passport, but please don't hop a flight into London and try to get one of those free houses JR8 likes to rant about..." :)


If you were paying 40% income tax to a country in which you don't even live to (in part) house people who shouldn't be there, in properties that you often couldn't afford yourself... you too might get a bit wound up when people keep reminding you of the fact :mad: :wink:

I've learnt something new today from some of replies above. I hadn't realised there are quite so many versions of the passport. Much of it emanated from the Commonwealth I expect - 'Just because we're giving you a British (territories) passport, isn't an open invite for all of you to come and live in Britain' kind of a deal. I mean, '''half''' of the West Indies, and East Indies DO seem to live in the UK as it is, or at least if feels that way at times... and these unplanned mass exoduses (reverse exodii?) tend to lead to ghettoisation, poverty, crime, and so on.

I recall the kerfuffle over Hong Kong. How suddenly an awful lot of people, Commonwealth citizens, were facing becoming Chinese citizens (or stateless), unless granted some variant of the British passport. Or something like that. It seems to be matters like that that give rise to the variants.

p.s. The first time I read this thread, having just woken up, I was wondering WTH ZZM was accusing me of ranting about pubs. 'When ever have I ranted about free-houses before, I rather like them! ... :???: '

Free house - a house that is free of cost.
Free-house - a public-house (aka 'pub') that is not owned by or tied to one brewery. They are often owned by the landlord himself, who is thus free to decide which products he wishes to stock, rather than being obliged to stock and sell only the owner/breweries products. Freehouses tend to have more character, are more welcoming, serve better F+B etc. [getting nostalgic now ... hehe... ]


p.s. For anyone interested this seems to explain the variants http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_nationality_law .... [It's loooong - I might leave reading it until later.... ]


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