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Singapore citizen and British citizen ?

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JR8
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Postby JR8 » Thu, 24 Jul 2014 9:34 am

This is a really interesting discussion for me, quite a revelation. I'd never heard of, and am still 'trying to get my around' how you can be born abroad and still be British.


--- I'm not for a moment questioning those who have clearly gone through/researched this; rather, I've simply never heard of such a thing (basis for citizenship) until here, today! :o

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Postby singapore eagle » Thu, 24 Jul 2014 9:48 am

the lynx wrote:Question: You still need to go through some processes to inform the consular of the birth of child of a British citizen, right?


No, you don't.

https://www.gov.uk/register-a-birth

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Postby Saint » Thu, 24 Jul 2014 9:48 am

the lynx wrote:Question: You still need to go through some processes to inform the consular of the birth of child of a British citizen, right?


No, need mandatory. This is what the British High Commission emailed me when I enquired a few months ago on whether I needed to register the births

"Consular birth registration is not mandatory, the Singapore birth certificate is recognised by the UK authorities. There is no time limit to register the birth with us the only rule is that the registration must be completed in the country where the children were born. Later the this year the process will move to an online application which means that you will not have to actually come to us to complete the registration. For more information on registering a birth please go to www.gov.uk/register-a-birth"

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Postby singapore eagle » Thu, 24 Jul 2014 9:54 am

Strong Eagle wrote:
singapore eagle wrote:If I am wrong about any of this, I'd be delighted for someone to direct me to the law or guidelines that say so.


I think, based upon Article 135, that you are correct... citizenship acquired at birth automatically, but never "exercised" as defined in Article 135, allows one to have dual citizenship in Singapore.

I hadn't read Article 135 until this thread came up, and I have to say, the age of 21, and mandatory renunciation of other citizenships seems to have been the "common knowledge" for the last 10 years I have been on this board.

I think Article 135 and the surrounding articles make it pretty clear that if other citizenship is obtained other than automatically at birth... for example, a Singaporean child obtaining citizenship in Australia, then either that AU citizenship must be renounced or the Singapore citizenship can be taken away.


The final paragraph is important for anyone that might discover this thread at a later date.

We've been talking about kids who are dual citizens at birth. If you acquire a second citizenship through "voluntary or formal act" - whether the second citizenship is Singaporean or foreign - it looks like you almost always have to eventually renounce one citizenship.

It's dual citizens from birth that can happily retain dual citizenship for life, subject to Article 135 of the Singapore Constitution.

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Postby Beeroclock » Thu, 24 Jul 2014 10:11 am

singapore eagle wrote:
Strong Eagle wrote:
singapore eagle wrote:If I am wrong about any of this, I'd be delighted for someone to direct me to the law or guidelines that say so.


I think, based upon Article 135, that you are correct... citizenship acquired at birth automatically, but never "exercised" as defined in Article 135, allows one to have dual citizenship in Singapore.

I hadn't read Article 135 until this thread came up, and I have to say, the age of 21, and mandatory renunciation of other citizenships seems to have been the "common knowledge" for the last 10 years I have been on this board.

I think Article 135 and the surrounding articles make it pretty clear that if other citizenship is obtained other than automatically at birth... for example, a Singaporean child obtaining citizenship in Australia, then either that AU citizenship must be renounced or the Singapore citizenship can be taken away.


The final paragraph is important for anyone that might discover this thread at a later date.

We've been talking about kids who are dual citizens at birth. If you acquire a second citizenship through "voluntary or formal act" - whether the second citizenship is Singaporean or foreign - it looks like you almost always have to eventually renounce one citizenship.

It's dual citizens from birth that can happily retain dual citizenship for life, subject to Article 135 of the Singapore Constitution.


After following this thread, I also agree wrt the British citizenship at birth.

However since the thread has also mentioned various other nationalities, just to clarify wrt Australian citizenship by descent as per my earlier post (where I had incorrectly extrapolated assuming the Australia and British systems would be the same) that it is not automatic at birth. If eligible, you do need to go through the application process and once approved you get a citizenship certificate which is dated effective from the time of approval (not from birth). This citizenship cert. must be submitted in order for the child to get an Australian passport. So I would conclude while this "Your citizenship at birth is what it is. There's no automatic need for any bits of paper or further fanfare. " does applies to the British case, but it does not for Australia.

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Postby Beeroclock » Thu, 24 Jul 2014 10:26 am

JR8 wrote:This is a really interesting discussion for me, quite a revelation. I'd never heard of, and am still 'trying to get my around' how you can be born abroad and still be British.

As I understand, the nexus between the place of birth and citizenship is getting weaker and weaker as time goes on. I thought the US is one of (the only?) "developed" country that still grants citizenship by virtue of being born there, and even they are reviewing if they should keep this (perhaps due to people abusing the system, travelling there heavily pregnant etc). So I guess it's a corollary of this, i.e. being born in a country doesn't automatically make you a citizen, so then also being born outside of a particular country shouldn't preclude you from citizenship provided you have strong ties to that country (i.e. one or both parents are a citizen).

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Postby singapore eagle » Thu, 24 Jul 2014 10:34 am

Beeroclock wrote:After following this thread, I also agree wrt the British citizenship at birth.

However since the thread has also mentioned various other nationalities, just to clarify wrt Australian citizenship by descent as per my earlier post (where I had incorrectly extrapolated assuming the Australia and British systems would be the same) that it is not automatic at birth. If eligible, you do need to go through the application process and once approved you get a citizenship certificate which is dated effective from the time of approval (not from birth). This citizenship cert. must be submitted in order for the child to get an Australian passport. So I would conclude while this "Your citizenship at birth is what it is. There's no automatic need for any bits of paper or further fanfare. " does applies to the British case, but it does not for Australia.


It sounds like a child born to an Australian parent overseas is not automatically Australian at birth. You have to consciously apply to become an Australian citizen.

I think the statement that "Your citizenship at birth is what it is" is technically correct. But in case of confusion, the test here - according to the Singapore Constitution - is whether a citizenship was obtained by voluntary or formal act.

If you obtain a second citizenship by voluntary or formal act, and if one of the citizenships is Singaporean, most, if not all, roads lead eventually to an obligation to renounce one of those citizenships.

If you are born in Singapore, and you are a dual citizen by accident of birth, there is no such obligation.
Last edited by singapore eagle on Thu, 24 Jul 2014 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby AngMoG » Thu, 24 Jul 2014 11:07 am

I think some people are missing the point a bit here...

The rules in the constitution are pretty pro-revocation of citizenship. All the government needs to prove is that:
- The dual citizen renewed his passport after he turned 18
- The dual citizen exercised any rights accorded to him as citizen of the other country, except use of passport. This could be, for example, paying lower study fees in the home country.
- The dual citizen has retained his foreign citizenship after age 18:
Art. 134 (1) The Government may, by order, deprive a citizen of Singapore of his citizenship if the Government is satisfied that (a) he has, while of or over the age of 18 years, at any time after 6th April 1960 acquired by registration, naturalisation or other voluntary and formal act (other than marriage) the citizenship of any country outside Singapore or having so acquired such citizenship before the age of 18 years continues to retain it after that age; (...)


Also note that according to Art. 122, any citizen by descent (i.e., born outside Singapore to Singaporean parents) has to decide by the age of 21, which is probably where the number comes from. And don't forget that winning against the gov in court is unlikely...

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Postby singapore eagle » Thu, 24 Jul 2014 11:21 am

This is a helpful clarification:

AngMoG wrote:Also note that according to Art. 122, any citizen by descent (i.e., born outside Singapore to Singaporean parents) has to decide by the age of 21


So, to be clear, we're talking in this thread about dual citizens by birth that are born in Singapore.

But a couple of other things you say in your post are not correct.

1) Article 134 does not apply to children, like my kids, who are dual citizens by birth - i.e. who have not acquired a second citizenship by voluntary and formal act
2) Re: passport, Article 135 gives the government the power to take away Singapore citizenship from anyone who applies for or renews a foreign passport

I think I'll withdraw from this thread now. If you go through my previous posts, you'll find what I'm pretty sure is the legal position for children born in Singapore that have dual citizenship from birth - and especially for kids born here to a British citizen and Singapore citizen.
Last edited by singapore eagle on Thu, 24 Jul 2014 11:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby singapore eagle » Thu, 24 Jul 2014 11:22 am

...

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Postby Strong Eagle » Thu, 24 Jul 2014 11:23 am

the lynx wrote:Question: You still need to go through some processes to inform the consular of the birth of child of a British citizen, right?


No. Optional. So long as there is a birth certificate issued with positive identification of parents, no registration is required. Singapore is a non issue as it keeps excellent records.

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Postby Strong Eagle » Thu, 24 Jul 2014 11:39 am

Beeroclock wrote:
JR8 wrote:This is a really interesting discussion for me, quite a revelation. I'd never heard of, and am still 'trying to get my around' how you can be born abroad and still be British.

As I understand, the nexus between the place of birth and citizenship is getting weaker and weaker as time goes on. I thought the US is one of (the only?) "developed" country that still grants citizenship by virtue of being born there, and even they are reviewing if they should keep this (perhaps due to people abusing the system, travelling there heavily pregnant etc). So I guess it's a corollary of this, i.e. being born in a country doesn't automatically make you a citizen, so then also being born outside of a particular country shouldn't preclude you from citizenship provided you have strong ties to that country (i.e. one or both parents are a citizen).


It will require a constitutional amendment in the USA to change the granting of citizenship by virtue of birth on USA soil. This is a result of the 14th amendment, essentially one of a package of amendments passed after the abolition of slavery. It's intent at the time was to ensure that USA born children of former slaves were indeed USA citizens. I seriously doubt this is going to change any time soon, in spite of the tea party loonies who think the USA is being overrun by "anchor babies".

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Postby Strong Eagle » Thu, 24 Jul 2014 11:48 am

JR8 wrote:This is a really interesting discussion for me, quite a revelation. I'd never heard of, and am still 'trying to get my around' how you can be born abroad and still be British.


--- I'm not for a moment questioning those who have clearly gone through/researched this; rather, I've simply never heard of such a thing (basis for citizenship) until here, today! :o


Actually, JR8, UK immigration law and policy is incredibly complex and convoluted.

In the beginning, anybody in the British empire could become a citizen and move to the UK at will.

In 1964 (I think) the first immigration reform bill was passed... the bill under which I have citizenship... at the time of my birth, Canada had not yet declared "independence" and my father was a "British Subject" as well as a Canadian citizen... I was a shoe in.

In 1983 (I think), major changes were made to the immigration acts, seriously limiting those from the colonies, territories, and other British controlled areas to be able to have the right of abode in the UK. Right of descent still existed, though.

And again, in 2006 (I think), the law was further tightened as to whom has the right of abode. Basically, only "British Citizens" have the right of abode and employment, and one category that still exists is right of citizenship by descent.

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Postby zzm9980 » Thu, 24 Jul 2014 12:44 pm

Beeroclock wrote:I thought the US is one of (the only?) "developed" country that still grants citizenship by virtue of being born there, and even they are reviewing if they should keep this (perhaps due to people abusing the system, travelling there heavily pregnant etc).


Any real source for this? Or just something you read on the Internet? I live in the US and follow "Immigration Reform" rather closely and have heard of no such thing.

Edit to add: I mean, it's the 14th amendment to the US Constitution. Those don't change very often even with a functional Congress, let alone the circus we've had lately. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteenth ... nstitution
Last edited by zzm9980 on Thu, 24 Jul 2014 12:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby aster » Thu, 24 Jul 2014 12:52 pm

Saint wrote:
aster wrote:
Saint wrote:I will be applying for the boy's British Passports (I'm still trying to find out the best way of doing this so if anyone on here has been through this experience recently please let me know?).


Just to double-check, you are a UK citizen born in the UK before 1 Jan, 1983, and the kids were born here in Singapore?


Yes correct, mother is Singaporean


In this case if you have your (own) birth certificate then you can apply for British passports for your kids straight away. Just print out the forms (and the guide that comes along with them as it is helpful) and send it in with the appropriate docs. In your case the process is very straightforward as your birth certificate is the key.

Since you were born in the UK before 1 Jan, 1983, your kids are automatically British citizens by descent. Keep in mind though that you might need to do some "future planning" in order for your kids' kids to be UK nationals as well - in other words their kids will need to be born in the UK to automatically become citizens.


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