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Singapore citizen and British citizen ?

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singapore eagle
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Postby singapore eagle » Wed, 23 Jul 2014 4:24 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:From what I have learned over the years, is that, unless there have been certain changes, there is only one country in which you are presumed to have acquired citizenship before birth the conditions are there. It's the same country that taxes you on your world wide income as well. All the rest, you have to jump through hoops and make an application for same. Speak up or out at your own peril.


I think you'll find us Brits are in the same position. My kids (and Saint's kids, by the sounds of it) were British the moment they were born. No forms, nor registration, they just were.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Wed, 23 Jul 2014 5:26 pm

Out of curiosity and anecdotal evidence for the future, I would be interested in hearing the blow by blow process that actually transpires when you and Saint go to get the children's British Birth Certificates and passports. It would probably help a lot of people on here who search the archives looking for just that sort of stuff.

:)

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Postby singapore eagle » Wed, 23 Jul 2014 5:38 pm

I suspect my next update will be in 16 years time!

I can't think of any reason at the moment why my kids need a British passport. And it hadn't even occurred to me get a UK birth certificate, if such a thing even exists for children born overseas. (I realise that other people's personal circumstances may be quite different.)

What I've learned from the last 2 days of digging around (read: finding an excuse to avoid proper work) is that my Singaporean kids are also British citizens and will stay that way without me doing anything. There may come a point at which they want to make use of their British citizenship, but that doesn't look to be on the horizon right now.

Maybe that's a useful lesson in itself for anyone who reads this thread or discovers it later on. Your citizenship at birth is what it is. There's no automatic need for any bits of paper or further fanfare.

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Postby singapore eagle » Wed, 23 Jul 2014 5:39 pm

I should also say again that my kids are girls. I might have a completely different view if they were boys, so I can understand that Saint is in a different position.

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Postby Mad Scientist » Wed, 23 Jul 2014 6:57 pm

[quote]
Last edited by Mad Scientist on Sun, 10 Aug 2014 7:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
The positive thinker sees the invisible, feels the intangible, and achieves the impossible.Yahoo !!!

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Postby Mad Scientist » Wed, 23 Jul 2014 7:11 pm

[quote]
Last edited by Mad Scientist on Sun, 10 Aug 2014 7:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
The positive thinker sees the invisible, feels the intangible, and achieves the impossible.Yahoo !!!

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Postby singapore eagle » Wed, 23 Jul 2014 7:33 pm

Quote from earlier in the thread for Mad Scientist.

singapore eagle wrote:
Beeroclock wrote:So they do not have dual citizenship from birth, only if you consciously take the action to apply for the British citizenship and it gets approved.


I don't think this is quite right. The guidance notes states:

"Children who have automatically acquired British citizenship do not need to be registered. There are two ways a child can automatically be a British citizen without needing to register. ...

2 British citizenship by descent

British citizenship may descend to one generation born abroad. So a child born abroad to a parent who is British otherwise than by descent will automatically be British by descent."

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... n-form-mn1

So it seems that my children are automatically British citizens.


I know I must seem like an incredibly annoying broken record, but I don't think what you say in the post preceding this one is correct.

The guidance states that my kids (Singaporean mother, British father (by birth), born in Singapore) are automatically British citizens from birth.

They are also Singapore citizens from birth.

In this situation, I don't think that the following statement is correct for Singapore citizens by birth who are also citizen of another country by birth:

Mad Scientist wrote:The guidelines for child is to renounce one citizenship at the age of 21


If I am wrong about any of this, I'd be delighted for someone to direct me to the law or guidelines that say so.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Wed, 23 Jul 2014 10:03 pm

Just do what you want and let us know how it goes. :-|

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Postby Strong Eagle » Wed, 23 Jul 2014 10:29 pm

PNGMK wrote:...it's not actually revocable (of course destroying a passport is what Singapore usually requests AFAIK).


Singapore's renunciation process is more complicated than that. You must, in writing, before a consular official of your country of citizenship, renounce your citizenship.

I don't know about Australia, but I do know that if you were to undertake such a process in the UK, you can also regain the citizenship you renounced, but only once.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... 9/bn18.pdf

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Postby Strong Eagle » Wed, 23 Jul 2014 10:49 pm

singapore eagle wrote:Your citizenship at birth is what it is. There's no automatic need for any bits of paper or further fanfare.


This is a good point to emphasize. I was about 50 years old when I did some digging around to see if I qualified as a British citizen. Navigating the UK citizenship pages was a nightmare at the time, and I concluded from what I read that I was indeed a citizen by descent.

I contacted a naturalization company in the UK to run my information by them. The person who responded at first said, "No, you don't qualify." This didn't make any sense to me since I had traced myself on a chart I found online.

A few days later, the managing director of the company called me to apologize... he said, "You certainly seem to know more about the naturalization process than the people working for me." He gave me some advice on applying for a passport, the documentation I would need to provide to prove up my assertions.

I had to supply my own birth certificate (Canadian), my father's birth certificate (Liverpool), my mother's birth certificate (Canadian), as well as my parent's marriage license. Because my father had been previously married, I had to prove up that he had been divorced from his first wife with the divorce decree. This was the toughest document to find as my father had never mentioned the name of his first wife, but the records people in British Columbia were most helpful, and helped me research the archives all the way back to 1947.

I made application, sending in all the original documents I had collected. I received one question back in a letter, I responded, and shortly thereafter I received my passport.

Thus, I did have to prove that I was a British Citizen by right of descent but that citizenship was automatically mine at birth.

And FWIW, when I applied for and received my American citizenship, I had to orally renounce allegiance to other countries but neither Canada nor the UK considered that actual renunciation, instead requiring a written renunciation in front of a consular official.

Since that time, there have been several cases that have been decided by the Supreme Court that permit dual citizenship and ensure that my citizenship is equal to that of a natural born citizen, ie, I can't be stripped of my American citizenship by virtue of the fact that I automatically hold citizenship in two other countries.

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Postby Strong Eagle » Wed, 23 Jul 2014 10:58 pm

singapore eagle wrote:If I am wrong about any of this, I'd be delighted for someone to direct me to the law or guidelines that say so.


I think, based upon Article 135, that you are correct... citizenship acquired at birth automatically, but never "exercised" as defined in Article 135, allows one to have dual citizenship in Singapore.

I hadn't read Article 135 until this thread came up, and I have to say, the age of 21, and mandatory renunciation of other citizenships seems to have been the "common knowledge" for the last 10 years I have been on this board.

I think Article 135 and the surrounding articles make it pretty clear that if other citizenship is obtained other than automatically at birth... for example, a Singaporean child obtaining citizenship in Australia, then either that AU citizenship must be renounced or the Singapore citizenship can be taken away.

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Postby PNGMK » Thu, 24 Jul 2014 2:11 am

Strong Eagle wrote:
PNGMK wrote:...it's not actually revocable (of course destroying a passport is what Singapore usually requests AFAIK).


Singapore's renunciation process is more complicated than that. You must, in writing, before a consular official of your country of citizenship, renounce your citizenship.

I don't know about Australia, but I do know that if you were to undertake such a process in the UK, you can also regain the citizenship you renounced, but only once.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... 9/bn18.pdf


I can't be bothered fact checking but I believe it's on the 3rd such undertaking that the AC is lost forever. Clearly something I need to check.

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Postby PNGMK » Thu, 24 Jul 2014 2:15 am

Strong Eagle wrote:
singapore eagle wrote:Your citizenship at birth is what it is. There's no automatic need for any bits of paper or further fanfare.


This is a good point to emphasize. I was about 50 years old when I did some digging around to see if I qualified as a British citizen. Navigating the UK citizenship pages was a nightmare at the time, and I concluded from what I read that I was indeed a citizen by descent.
SNIP

at of a natural born citizen, ie, I can't be stripped of my American citizenship by virtue of the fact that I automatically hold citizenship in two other countries.


I did a similar thing in Britain but as a grandchild of a BC to obtain a 'patriality certificate'. It turned out my grandmother was an illegitimate child and had been informally adopted. It was apparently somewhat of a revelation to my Uncles at the time.

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Postby Saint » Thu, 24 Jul 2014 9:24 am

Mad Scientist wrote:OK let's be clear on one thing
If the child is born in Singapore from a Singaporean parent i,e one of them
the child is a Singaporean
To acquire another citizenship by virtue of one of the parent is from a different country, the process is not a given like in , JPN, Sweden, OZ and NZ
Only USA has the outright citizenship if parent is a US citizen


Incorrect, my twins are British Citizen by birth without the need to apply/register, fact
Mad Scientist wrote:
If they are born here. apply for Brit Citizenship as a back up but let it slide through at 21 without renouncing and see how it goesThere are cases where ICA automatically exercise their powers and revoke the Singapore Citizenship but these fell on the male child
The females tends to fall off the radar for some reason


Why need to apply for British Citzenship if already British from birth like my twins??

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Postby the lynx » Thu, 24 Jul 2014 9:33 am

Question: You still need to go through some processes to inform the consular of the birth of child of a British citizen, right?


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