Singapore Expats Forum

ICA Tourist Visa Ruling .. should I appeal?

Relocating, travelling or planning to make Singapore home? Discuss the criterias, passes or visa that is required.
chi11ax
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 11
Joined: Sat, 12 Jul 2014
Location: Singapore

Re: ICA Tourist Visa Ruling .. should I appeal?

Postby chi11ax » Sun, 13 Jul 2014 5:02 am

ecureilx wrote:
to be safe go back home and come back, as ICA suggested, home = your country of origin ... that is if you want to avoid any more headache in the future ..


Actually the interviewer kept yelling go home, but I asked the much calmer lady outside who stamped my passport if Malaysia was OK and she said yes.

oh,'why didn't they ask you if you are job hunting? because they know nobody will tell the truth ... and ICa staff know that ... why bother asking ...


I brought up the point that a job meant that I couldn't travel. To which the interviewer also replied "Malaysia isn't travelling"

It might be a cultural issue. I was at a wedding today and I mentioned that I was travelling long term. And one of the guests said that this is not something in the Singaporean mindset.

So maybe ICA person has been to Malaysia next door so it doesn't feel like travelling to her, neither does my long time away from home.

Yet she failed to see that someone from half way around the world would see Malaysia as exotic, and spending time frequently with relatives you have not seen in 20 years (and over 70nyears old) is different from not spending time with relatives she might see annually.

Like I have not seen them in 20 years and asking me to say goodbye to the aunt who took care of me when I was a kid. Who's over 70, whose brother and sister just died, is like forcing me to say goodbye to her for the last time.

User avatar
zzm9980
Governor
Governor
Posts: 6837
Joined: Wed, 06 Jul 2011
Location: Once more unto the breach

Postby zzm9980 » Sun, 13 Jul 2014 6:20 am

zzm9980 wrote:Do you happen to have a blog about all of the places you've back-packed to, including two posts about Singapore. One about what a paradise it is, followed by a second post talking about the abused foreign labor you met in a hostel?


Never mind, it's this guy: https://levels.io
Story doesn't match you at all.

User avatar
ecureilx
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 9810
Joined: Fri, 20 Aug 2010

Re: ICA Tourist Visa Ruling .. should I appeal?

Postby ecureilx » Sun, 13 Jul 2014 10:47 am

chi11ax wrote:[.

Like I have not seen them in 20 years and asking me to say goodbye to the aunt who took care of me when I was a kid. Who's over 70, whose brother and sister just died, is like forcing me to say goodbye to her for the last time.


I am a bit curious to know which country you keep referring to as half way around the world ... Brazil ? Argentina? Columbia?

oh, btw, there are Columbians and Brazilians illegally working in Singapore ... and that does stain your insisting on you good intentions. or your love for the aunt etc,'moving story but. ICA hears even more worse sad stories ... and accusation sometimes like ICA refusing entry to the foreigner equates to breaking up a close knit family etc,. and ICA isn't your agony aunt. if you miss them so much why not park yourself permanently in Malaysia ? no cannot because Malaysia isn't lax as well ... right? now if you say Malaysia it is, iCA may start to believe you ..

anyway you miss the whole point

in simple term its not about your intentions or how good and pure your thoughts are or how much your heart needs you to be in this region ...

since Singapore is a magnet for those from third world countries and sometimes western countries also, ICA has every right to ask you to 'go back to your country ' when they don't like your travel pattern

again, going to Malaysia is not going back, but stubbornly you refuse that part

Good luck anyway, you maybe lucky on your next entry here ...

PS, some of the sob stories I heard are like ...
1) I love Singapore so much and I miss Singapore people, please give me a chance. You will not regret it.
2) I can't stay too long away from my adopted Singapore family
3) don't tell me to go back home because my home is here, because of my adapted brother/sister loves me more than anybody else
4) my heart breaks to leave my Singapore Ah Mah / Ah Kong alone, I am the only one who makes them happiest ,she will be sad if I am not with her

beppi
Manager
Manager
Posts: 1752
Joined: Thu, 07 Sep 2006
Location: Ahlongistan (O$P$)

Postby beppi » Sun, 13 Jul 2014 3:43 pm

chi11ax wrote:What if it's getting income from travel blogging? That's one way to gain income ... but you kinda have to blog ... to get income ...
Even if I had ad based sites ... or phone apps ... I'll have to update or bug fix them from time to time ...
I have met a few people who make web sites while travelling the world. Maybe the key is just not to go through Singapore?

You are naive!
All countries control (and tax) work done on their territory, and all have work permit rules in place for that. None that I know of allows self-employed or freelance work without registration and taxation.
There might be people doing it under the radar (in Singapore as well as elsewhere), but that doesn't make it any more legal.
Avoiding Singapore only changes the chance of detection (and penalty).

chi11ax
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 11
Joined: Sat, 12 Jul 2014
Location: Singapore

Re: ICA Tourist Visa Ruling .. should I appeal?

Postby chi11ax » Sun, 13 Jul 2014 4:00 pm

ecureilx wrote: aunt. if you miss them so much why not park yourself permanently in Malaysia ? no cannot because Malaysia isn't lax as well ... right? now if you say Malaysia it is, iCA may start to believe you ..


Actually I was just telling my aunt that if Johor was as habitable as Melaka and KL, and I can get around more easily on foot or something I would totally just live in Johor and drop by from time to time.

Which I could have planned to do, or made any kind of alternative plans, even just travel around more, if I had a prior warning.

The interviewer asked why my aunts didn't advise me on this. But how are my old aunts knowledgeable about this? Why didn't any border agent way more qualified to do so advise me? And they had so many opportunities to do so every time they stamp my passport.

I think this is what bugs me the most. That they didn't warn me when they had every opportunity to, pushed the blame for warning on my relatives, then slapped this on me out of the blue.

Like I said before in previous posts, I was happy to oblige and follow their guidelines if I had a warning.


again, going to Malaysia is not going back, but stubbornly you refuse that part


Well there are two major things I want to attend in August in Malaysia and then in November in Cambodia. Maybe after that I will consider going back for a bit.

Right now I get an income quite balanced with my expenditure out in Asia soon I can actually spend time doing what I want though in a rather frugal manner. But I like the laid back life at the moment.

The idea of getting a job in Singapore actually repulses me. Too many long hours!

Before my relatives started suddenly dying, I also wanted to apply for Chinese school in Taiwan and they need a minimum savings.

By going home, I might have to find a job to replace those savings if I do want to apply. So then it might set me back a while.

But it also seems like the interviewer said I should have more stamps from more countries. And I intended to also head to Taiwan, Korea, etc at some point. Maybe if I did show that I was travelling around between now and November that might be fine.

To just tell me to go home without prior warning, that's quite harsh isn't it? If I was a repeat offender or something, I could see where they might have reason. But to have to change my plans for almost a year because of something they could have warned me about but didn't is quite unreasonable.

I don't demand to have a right to be in Singapore or anything like that but if I got to explain all of this, or if they at least warned me and not slap this on me right away, so many problems could be avoided.

And that's basically my grevience with this situation. If after my 3 month stay away all is well then I'm fine with that and let it go.

Good luck anyway, you maybe lucky on your next entry here ...


Thanks. I'm trying not to lose sleep over this and spend time with my friends and family before saying goodbye to them for a while. [/b]

User avatar
sundaymorningstaple
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 34783
Joined: Thu, 11 Nov 2004
Location: Still Fishing!
Contact:

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sun, 13 Jul 2014 4:10 pm

Your constant refrain seems to by "why didn't they warn me?" They did. They gave you a tourist visa that has an expiry date. They and you, both know that you can see all that needs to be seen in singapore in 3.5 days or a week at the outside. Anything more than thirty days means you are playing the system or working illegally, either for an employer here in Singapore or online. At any rate, you are taking up space and using facilities and adding to the overcrowding here but are not contributing anything of value at all. They don't need to give you warning. That's a basic fact of life you need to get used to as Immigration officers the world over are all the same. Guess it's time to wake up and smell the roses.

chi11ax
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 11
Joined: Sat, 12 Jul 2014
Location: Singapore

Postby chi11ax » Sun, 13 Jul 2014 4:11 pm

beppi wrote:You are naive!
All countries control (and tax) work done on their territory, and all have work permit rules in place for that. None that I know of allows self-employed or freelance work without registration and taxation.
There might be people doing it under the radar (in Singapore as well as elsewhere), but that doesn't make it any more legal.
Avoiding Singapore only changes the chance of detection (and penalty).


I file income tax back home, client is from home, but I add tourist dollars to the economy. I met someone who was working in IT for a US airline remotely while travelling in Taiwan.

I see your point if I do a lot of freelance work full time, which really I don't intend to do, but occasional updates to clients sites, I don't think that be a problem?

But actually what about developing your own app? This is what I want to move towards. More freedom as I can just leave it in the store but have to update it on my own schedule not when the client wants.

Couchsurfing for example is a US based company but was developed by two guys while travelling in Thailand I believe.

User avatar
PNGMK
Governor
Governor
Posts: 5403
Joined: Thu, 21 Mar 2013
Location: Sinkapore

Postby PNGMK » Sun, 13 Jul 2014 5:15 pm

chi11ax wrote:
beppi wrote:You are naive!
All countries control (and tax) work done on their territory, and all have work permit rules in place for that. None that I know of allows self-employed or freelance work without registration and taxation.
There might be people doing it under the radar (in Singapore as well as elsewhere), but that doesn't make it any more legal.
Avoiding Singapore only changes the chance of detection (and penalty).


I file income tax back home, client is from home, but I add tourist dollars to the economy. I met someone who was working in IT for a US airline remotely while travelling in Taiwan.

I see your point if I do a lot of freelance work full time, which really I don't intend to do, but occasional updates to clients sites, I don't think that be a problem?

But actually what about developing your own app? This is what I want to move towards. More freedom as I can just leave it in the store but have to update it on my own schedule not when the client wants.

Couchsurfing for example is a US based company but was developed by two guys while travelling in Thailand I believe.


The register a legal entity here, have the entity own the IP rights and pay taxes etc when the entity produces a profit... but oh no... you want it all without any of the tax burden I assume?

User avatar
JR8
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 16514
Joined: Wed, 24 Mar 2010
Location: K. Puki Manis

Postby JR8 » Sun, 13 Jul 2014 6:05 pm

PNGMK wrote:The register a legal entity here, have the entity own the IP rights and pay taxes etc when the entity produces a profit... but oh no... you want it all without any of the tax burden I assume?


But he's a '''tourist''' :roll: :lol:

User avatar
ecureilx
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 9810
Joined: Fri, 20 Aug 2010

Postby ecureilx » Sun, 13 Jul 2014 8:38 pm

chi11ax wrote:[]

I file income tax back home, client is from home, but I add tourist dollars to the economy. .
.


SMS is spot on .. you should have done your homework instead of blaming the Border Guards / ICA!!! :P

tourist $?

yesterday I bumped into a politico from a nearby country whose bar bill was close to 2,000 s$. Are you talking about that kind of $ ? :evil:

Singapore gets enough tourist $ and the events like F1 and the conferences add real $, and they aren't gonna bend over backwards for the tourist $ of an unemployed bloke, heck, you are still least preferred vs unemployed women coming here on Vacations :twisted:

beppi
Manager
Manager
Posts: 1752
Joined: Thu, 07 Sep 2006
Location: Ahlongistan (O$P$)

Postby beppi » Sun, 13 Jul 2014 8:58 pm

chi11ax wrote: I file income tax back home,

According to the rules, you need to pay tax in Singapore when living/working here. This also includes (in prinicple) income from informal and illegal work.
Most countries' rules are similar.

chi11ax wrote:but I add tourist dollars to the economy.

The average tourist spends something like S$400/day. Do you???
Thus the Singapore authorities see you as a burden rather than an economic contributor!

chi11ax wrote:I met someone who was working in IT for a US airline remotely while travelling in Taiwan.
Couchsurfing for example is a US based company but was developed by two guys while travelling in Thailand I believe.

Illegal, although (unlike Singapore) not readily enforced. I wanted to (legally) work in these two countries before as a freelancer and found it is not at all possible. In the end my (local) clients hired me pro-forma, so I could get a work permit. That is impossible if the clients are abroad - there is no legal way for that in both countries! (Please also note that income taxes are quite high in these countries.)

Laws do not (yet) reflect the (recent) development of internationally mobile, virtual work like described above. Change will be a glacial pace, though, and no country will give up the right to control who enters and works there and to tax such income. Thus while it's currently possible under the radar (simply because authorities have not waken up yet), this will become stricter.

chi11ax wrote:I see your point if I do a lot of freelance work full time, which really I don't intend to do, but occasional updates to clients sites, I don't think that be a problem?

As stated above, it is already illegal and the situation will not change. How much you work is immaterial to the legal situation.

beppi
Manager
Manager
Posts: 1752
Joined: Thu, 07 Sep 2006
Location: Ahlongistan (O$P$)

Re: ICA Tourist Visa Ruling .. should I appeal?

Postby beppi » Sun, 13 Jul 2014 9:13 pm

chi11ax wrote:If after my 3 month stay away all is well then I'm fine with that and let it go.

It won't!
Knowing the Singapore authorities (and their long memory), I'd expect you'll not get 90 days in the country ever again, more likely in the range of the 7 days you got this time. Some people who are flagged as undesirable by the system only get 3 days, just enough to arrange their departure to "home"!

User avatar
zzm9980
Governor
Governor
Posts: 6837
Joined: Wed, 06 Jul 2011
Location: Once more unto the breach

Postby zzm9980 » Mon, 14 Jul 2014 2:51 am

I just read last night (either in this thread or another, too lazy to search) that Cambodia offers year-long business Visas for just $$. No proof of employment required.

Why not go there and make that your 'South East Asia' base? Or choose Indonesia. While they have similar rules to Singapore, they're pretty lax on enforcement. As long as you come in and out every 30 days and pay your Visa on Arrival fee (US$25+ depending on your country of origin), they happily let you in. I know some people building startups that do that. Find a nice island near Bali that's still cheap and live there. Sumbawa is cheap.

chi11ax
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 11
Joined: Sat, 12 Jul 2014
Location: Singapore

Postby chi11ax » Mon, 14 Jul 2014 3:04 am

I think the past few replies seem to be trending off topic to things like whether or not I contribute to Singapore society and the amount of my tourism spending. I guess I in part introduced some of it as part of a broader answer, but the details are getting nitpicked on.

As a visitor, there's limited ways that I'm even allowed to contribute except maybe through blowing money on things I don't want or need. :P

I did some volunteering at least four times in Singapore ... between distributing food the the needy and helping the elderly and disabled. Well, five if you count one for a Singaporean organization that benefitted a foreign charity. There were other places I wanted to volunteer with but couldn't commit to their schedules.

So I think contribute positively to the society beyond "tourism".

But I'm sure that's subjective and you might value that differently, and frankly nothing to do with the issue at hand. So I'll just end this debate here.

So just to summarize what I said before and generally answer most of your replies ...

1. Interviewer said GO HOME ...

BUT

2. Lady in the front who stamped my passport said Malaysia is ok for this 3 month stay away ...

So some of you have suggested not going home might be a problem and to be safe, yes I should, but I also have lots of things to think about, lots I want to do in Asia and don't want to stray too far from the older relatives at the moment

3. The interviewer did seem agitated and even yelled at me when I was trying to ask the lady who stamped my passport a question. She seemed agitated from the start of the interview, which I feel is no way to conduct an interview.

I was polite the whole time, despite her demeaning comments, quoting inaccurate details about my passport, etc.

4. Interviewer said it could have been ok if I had other stamps from other countries

BUT

5. "Malaysia is not travelling"

6. I had to think long and hard how I would have found out that "Malaysia is not travelling" which seems to be the main problem.

And I can't for the life of me find out how I'd know that without being told by an ICA agent.

Because even Googling directly that Malaysia is not a valid destination for travel doesn't turn up such responses.

Also as I thought more about it, it feels like travelling through Singapore would have been OK if I travelled to other places, but she's telling me to go home because "Malaysia is not travelling".

7. I had no intention of overstaying any kind of welcome.

Just an ICA person telling me "hey, you're close to your limit" or "you know, you should travel to places other than Malaysia" rather than simply shutting the door with an irate interviewer yelling at me to "go home" would have been nice, and I would have gladly obliged.

8. The only written rule I am aware of is the 30 day limit on my visa each stamp ... which I have not broken.

9. When you haven't seen relatives in over 20 years, and are excited to come to this side of the world to see them, and have three of them suddenly die on you, you might suddenly shift your priorities to spending time with those who are still alive too.

10. I do parts of my online work while travelling in different countries, not all in any one country. Just whenever the clients require work. And I am shifting to self published app based anyway. And will work on it as I travel through different countries. Having any kind of registered entity might require me to stay in a country and I don't want to commit to physically staying in any country at the moment.

That being said, I have learned a lot of things along the way in this discussion, and I thank all of you for your input on this matter. You all gave me lots to think about and interesting insights into this matter.

As I was hanging out with my girlfriend today, these things kept popping into mind and I couldn't concentrate on what she was saying.

I feel I should spend quality time with her and my relatives in my remaining few days here.

So I'll stop checking this thread for a while and just focus my energies on packing and my loved ones ... and looking forward to the adventure ahead definitely with less time in Singapore from now on.

Thanks for your time and input! Wish you all the best!
Last edited by chi11ax on Mon, 14 Jul 2014 6:35 am, edited 4 times in total.

chi11ax
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 11
Joined: Sat, 12 Jul 2014
Location: Singapore

Postby chi11ax » Mon, 14 Jul 2014 3:06 am

zzm9980 wrote:I just read last night (either in this thread or another, too lazy to search) that Cambodia offers year-long business Visas for just $$. No proof of employment required.

Why not go there and make that your 'South East Asia' base? Or choose Indonesia. While they have similar rules to Singapore, they're pretty lax on enforcement. As long as you come in and out every 30 days and pay your Visa on Arrival fee (US$25+ depending on your country of origin), they happily let you in. I know some people building startups that do that. Find a nice island near Bali that's still cheap and live there. Sumbawa is cheap.


Thanks for your suggestion! I really appreciate it and will look into it. :)


  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post

Return to “PR, Citizenship, Passes & Visas for Foreigners”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests