Singapore Expats Forum

PR Approval Chances

Relocating, travelling or planning to make Singapore home? Discuss the criterias, passes or visa that is required.
opinionatedman
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Postby opinionatedman » Sun, 08 Jun 2014 6:12 pm

[quote="PNGMK"][quote="opinionatedman"][quote="PNGMK"]10% for PR and a decent chance that you'll lose your EP as well (33%). Honestly I want you guys chucked out anyways. You really screw it up for the local yokels.

The job you do and the salary is absolutely a spot on fit for a local unemployed PMET as mentioned above. A solutions manager is just hype speak for an IT guy anyways. Plenty of those unemployed from the local labour pool.[/quote]


Do you think that if locals could really do what these guys are doing then the companies were fools to take the trouble of searching the foreigner pool to get the exact match. In my company itself, we try and search locals and when we can't fill the space we go ahead and hire foreigners.

You are entitled to your opinion, but till the time Singapore wants to thrive on its tag as a financial hub, foreigners in this space will always remain, that is the fact my friend.[/quote]

Yes I do think Singaporeans could AND WILL replace you. I believe the market is tilted against them for various structural reasons (everything from NS to the EP pay levels acting as a type of minimum wage system), but these corrections are being addressed every month. I've met plenty of smart Sinkies and there are more graduating every year. I support the right of a SC to your (or my job) any day if they are as good as you (or I) am. We are just guests in this country.[/quote]



If wishes were horses beggars might fly!!!

Having said that, if the goverment becomes stricter, and forces global banks to hire locals, they will obviously migrate.....as we have seen quite a few banks do in the past.

I would be more than happy to see a local competing for a job, and out-performing a foreigner in a job interview, but the fact is that the talent pool of locals is quite thin, and to top it they come with loads of baggages. I know of people refusing job interviews because the workplace is a little far away, or work hours are bit on the higher side.

Education you can still get, but the attitude is something which is very difficult to breed.

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x9200
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Postby x9200 » Sun, 08 Jun 2014 7:13 pm

It is not only the local pool. I was always amazed reading on this very forum various entry posts by some so called foreign talents. Coming in on a decent package and not able to find simplest information by themselves. These are the people who should never be allowed to work here. I have not seen any of them around for a while. Good, what the gov does seems to work.

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Postby Wd40 » Sun, 08 Jun 2014 7:29 pm

x9200 wrote:It is not only the local pool. I was always amazed reading on this very forum various entry posts by some so called foreign talents. Coming in on a decent package and not able to find simplest information by themselves. These are the people who should never be allowed to work here. I have not seen any of them around for a while. Good, what the gov does seems to work.


Skill and attitude are 2 different things. Lets say company needs a Java developer. They try finding a local who has work experience of 5 years in Java. Cannot find. Get a person from India, very easy to find. The Indian is very good in Java and perform the job well. However, just because he asks stupid questions on this forum, are you going to discredit his Java skills and want him to be sent home? What does the company who need a Java developer do?

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x9200
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Postby x9200 » Sun, 08 Jun 2014 8:04 pm

Wd40 wrote:However, just because he asks stupid questions on this forum, are you going to discredit his Java skills and want him to be sent home? What does the company who need a Java developer do?

Big YES. Attitude at work is often even more important than skills. This is all about quality and quality is what Singapore needs most. They don't need lousy workers and lazy opportunists.

Of course we are talking about average Joes.

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Postby Wd40 » Sun, 08 Jun 2014 11:19 pm

x9200 wrote:
Wd40 wrote:However, just because he asks stupid questions on this forum, are you going to discredit his Java skills and want him to be sent home? What does the company who need a Java developer do?

Big YES. Attitude at work is often even more important than skills. This is all about quality and quality is what Singapore needs most. They don't need lousy workers and lazy opportunists.

Of course we are talking about average Joes.


Its all demand and supply isn't it? If you are willing to pay 6k to an Asian and don't get quality, what do you do? You try bringing in someone from Europe, Australia or US and pay them 10k if you have the budget, if not be happy with the Asian, no?

Or are you still under the impression that you can get great quality locals with the skills and the attitude for the low salary and the employers for some mysterious reasons love to hire foreigners who cant communicate well on forums. Employers don't seem to have a problem, then what is the problem?

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Postby Aragorn2000 » Sun, 08 Jun 2014 11:29 pm

Wd40 wrote:
x9200 wrote:It is not only the local pool. I was always amazed reading on this very forum various entry posts by some so called foreign talents. Coming in on a decent package and not able to find simplest information by themselves. These are the people who should never be allowed to work here. I have not seen any of them around for a while. Good, what the gov does seems to work.


Skill and attitude are 2 different things. Lets say company needs a Java developer. They try finding a local who has work experience of 5 years in Java. Cannot find. Get a person from India, very easy to find. The Indian is very good in Java and perform the job well. However, just because he asks stupid questions on this forum, are you going to discredit his Java skills and want him to be sent home? What does the company who need a Java developer do?


I've never ever found this "very easy to find" person from India. Care to show me one?

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Mi Amigo
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Postby Mi Amigo » Mon, 09 Jun 2014 2:36 am

x9200 wrote:
Wd40 wrote:However, just because he asks stupid questions on this forum, are you going to discredit his Java skills and want him to be sent home? What does the company who need a Java developer do?

Big YES. Attitude at work is often even more important than skills. This is all about quality and quality is what Singapore needs most. They don't need lousy workers and lazy opportunists.

Of course we are talking about average Joes.

^^^ I'm with x9200 on this.

Frankly speaking, I despair at some of the questions that get asked by new / would-be 'FTs' on this board. "Kindly spoon feed me or do this or that for me", etc. (and then expect me to ask more ridiculous questions rather than thanking you).

Obviously this only applies to some folks (a minority overall), but I sometimes wonder whether the people in question also need someone to wipe their backsides for them after they take a dump. Oops, I typed that out loud. Oh well.
Be careful what you wish for

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x9200
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Postby x9200 » Mon, 09 Jun 2014 6:31 am

Wd40 wrote:
x9200 wrote:
Wd40 wrote:However, just because he asks stupid questions on this forum, are you going to discredit his Java skills and want him to be sent home? What does the company who need a Java developer do?

Big YES. Attitude at work is often even more important than skills. This is all about quality and quality is what Singapore needs most. They don't need lousy workers and lazy opportunists.

Of course we are talking about average Joes.


Its all demand and supply isn't it? If you are willing to pay 6k to an Asian and don't get quality, what do you do? You try bringing in someone from Europe, Australia or US and pay them 10k if you have the budget, if not be happy with the Asian, no?

Or are you still under the impression that you can get great quality locals with the skills and the attitude for the low salary and the employers for some mysterious reasons love to hire foreigners who cant communicate well on forums. Employers don't seem to have a problem, then what is the problem?


For majority of the companies in Singapore it is indeed like that. That's why the service quality is here so poor. For the companies that care about quality (along side with the profit) they may have pending vacancies for long months.
You think that per average, Singapore services are good and top-world class, do you.

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Postby opinionatedman » Mon, 09 Jun 2014 7:24 am

x9200 wrote:
Wd40 wrote:However, just because he asks stupid questions on this forum, are you going to discredit his Java skills and want him to be sent home? What does the company who need a Java developer do?

Big YES. Attitude at work is often even more important than skills. This is all about quality and quality is what Singapore needs most. They don't need lousy workers and lazy opportunists.

Of course we are talking about average Joes.



Well, GOD bless you and your company, if that is what you look to hire a person.

Searching forums, for answers might just need some time for a person, hence quick fire shooting of questions, and getting it resolved might just be the way out of the busy schedule.

Thank goodness that most companies dont judge people on their web browsing skills at workplaces, but their core competencies.

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sundaymorningstaple
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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Mon, 09 Jun 2014 8:31 am

opinionatedman wrote:
Well, GOD bless you and your company, if that is what you look to hire a person.

Searching forums, for answers might just need some time for a person, hence quick fire shooting of questions, and getting it resolved might just be the way out of the busy schedule.

It generally take a lot longer to find an answer on a forum than it does using google. Where do you think most of our answers come from? From what I've seen of busy schedules it is because of eating at their desks and playing games on the PC and coming in late and taking long lunch hours. :roll:

Thank goodness that most companies dont judge people on their web browsing skills at workplaces, but their core competencies.

If most here were judged solely on their core competencies, staff strengths would go down by probably 30% immediately. Sadly, lots of contracts require a finite number of manpower (body count) regardless of whether or not the job could/can be handled by less. And usually there are fines in place for the vendor if they are short of manpower - what to do? Hire warm bodies. The system in place breeds incompetency.

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Postby midlet2013 » Mon, 09 Jun 2014 11:26 am

Once a person can do the job well, Attitude and Team Work matters more than anything else. But Attitude and No Skill leads to pity. But Attitude matters only once the basic skills are in place.

If Attitude were the only thing that mattered, then Job Desc would be One Liners.



x9200 wrote:
Wd40 wrote:However, just because he asks stupid questions on this forum, are you going to discredit his Java skills and want him to be sent home? What does the company who need a Java developer do?

Big YES. Attitude at work is often even more important than skills. This is all about quality and quality is what Singapore needs most. They don't need lousy workers and lazy opportunists.

Of course we are talking about average Joes.

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x9200
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Postby x9200 » Tue, 10 Jun 2014 9:30 am

midlet2013 wrote:Once a person can do the job well, Attitude and Team Work matters more than anything else. But Attitude and No Skill leads to pity. But Attitude matters only once the basic skills are in place.

If Attitude were the only thing that mattered, then Job Desc would be One Liners.



x9200 wrote:
Wd40 wrote:However, just because he asks stupid questions on this forum, are you going to discredit his Java skills and want him to be sent home? What does the company who need a Java developer do?

Big YES. Attitude at work is often even more important than skills. This is all about quality and quality is what Singapore needs most. They don't need lousy workers and lazy opportunists.



Of course we are talking about average Joes.


Where did I say the attitude is what only matters?
But you know, the skills if not perfect can be perfected (with a right attitude). No way the attitude can be changed that easily. In a healthy working environment people with wrong attitude, regardless their skills, are typically causing in long ran more damage than benefits.

I really think the problem with my opponents in this thread is that they simply don't understand what is a quality product/service. Do the job as being micromanaged by a direct supervisor, leave at 5-6pm regardless anything (except if boss is not happy), don't care about anything but your salary, do the job so the boss thinks they do a good job, rather than really doing a good job.

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Postby midlet2013 » Tue, 10 Jun 2014 10:52 am

I actually agree with you on Attitutde. In most jobs anyways, Attitude is important. There are few jobs though where Skills mite be more important.

But either way, even a Java developer with a good Attitude will go further in his career than one with poor attitude.

Although to say that skills can be learnt is not always true. There are some skills that cannot be learnt just thru slogging or spending time. But, I agree that in most cases, with the right attitude, one can fit in well and be productive over time.




x9200 wrote:
midlet2013 wrote:Once a person can do the job well, Attitude and Team Work matters more than anything else. But Attitude and No Skill leads to pity. But Attitude matters only once the basic skills are in place.

If Attitude were the only thing that mattered, then Job Desc would be One Liners.





x9200 wrote:
Wd40 wrote:However, just because he asks stupid questions on this forum, are you going to discredit his Java skills and want him to be sent home? What does the company who need a Java developer do?

Big YES. Attitude at work is often even more important than skills. This is all about quality and quality is what Singapore needs most. They don't need lousy workers and lazy opportunists.



Of course we are talking about average Joes.


Where did I say the attitude is what only matters?
But you know, the skills if not perfect can be perfected (with a right attitude). No way the attitude can be changed that easily. In a healthy working environment people with wrong attitude, regardless their skills, are typically causing in long ran more damage than benefits.

I really think the problem with my opponents in this thread is that they simply don't understand what is a quality product/service. Do the job as being micromanaged by a direct supervisor, leave at 5-6pm regardless anything (except if boss is not happy), don't care about anything but your salary, do the job so the boss thinks they do a good job, rather than really doing a good job.

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x9200
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Postby x9200 » Tue, 10 Jun 2014 11:17 am

midlet2013 wrote:Although to say that skills can be learnt is not always true. There are some skills that cannot be learnt just thru slogging or spending time.

Yes, but as I said, I was talking about an average Joe for a given job opportunity so this average guy is just like many other Joes around. It is not like he's applying for a job where some true talents are expected. If somebody is sort of special he can afford to have some problems with attitude but then typically this is the job that looks for him, not the other way around.

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Postby opinionatedman » Tue, 10 Jun 2014 12:37 pm

x9200 wrote:
midlet2013 wrote:Once a person can do the job well, Attitude and Team Work matters more than anything else. But Attitude and No Skill leads to pity. But Attitude matters only once the basic skills are in place.

If Attitude were the only thing that mattered, then Job Desc would be One Liners.



x9200 wrote:
Wd40 wrote:However, just because he asks stupid questions on this forum, are you going to discredit his Java skills and want him to be sent home? What does the company who need a Java developer do?

Big YES. Attitude at work is often even more important than skills. This is all about quality and quality is what Singapore needs most. They don't need lousy workers and lazy opportunists.



Of course we are talking about average Joes.


Where did I say the attitude is what only matters?
But you know, the skills if not perfect can be perfected (with a right attitude). No way the attitude can be changed that easily. In a healthy working environment people with wrong attitude, regardless their skills, are typically causing in long ran more damage than benefits.

I really think the problem with my opponents in this thread is that they simply don't understand what is a quality product/service. Do the job as being micromanaged by a direct supervisor, leave at 5-6pm regardless anything (except if boss is not happy), don't care about anything but your salary, do the job so the boss thinks they do a good job, rather than really doing a good job.


There you go....so you finally are agreing with me to some extent.

So you agree that attitude does matter, and when I say that many Singaporeans refuse job interviews because it is a "littke" far away from their home or it demads little steep hours - that is where I see a big attitude problem.

Having said that, I am not generalizing in any way. As I said, I would be more than willing to hire a Singaporean, if he matches the skillset that I require, but if he refuses cause my office is in CBD and the bloke lives in Jurong, I would have no choice but to hire an expact, who would be mor professional and be more keen on the job profile and not the distance from his house at the primary criteria to take up a job.


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