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Malaysian Airlines Flight MH370 Missing after take off

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rajagainstthemachine
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Postby rajagainstthemachine » Thu, 27 Mar 2014 12:36 pm

The MI flight episode where the pilot committed suicide was aired on Nat Geo's Aircraft Investigation. you could find a youtube link to it somewhere.
To me Pilots losing the plot on planes seems a far more serious danger than chances of system malfunction these days.
Not using navigational/tracking services provided by INMARSAT is appalling as well. Airport authorities spend all these millions of dollars on screening systems and security on the ground but its somehow laughable that they can't enable planes with tracking services.
Seems like its the same case everywhere, wait for something to cock up and then wake up and smell the air.
To get there early is on time and showing up on time is late

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Postby zzm9980 » Thu, 27 Mar 2014 12:56 pm

x9200 wrote:
Costs of fitting or retrofitting can be relatively small comparing to the compensation costs ruled legally to be paid to the families.


The amount I saw was ~$10 Million USD per commercial jet. I'm really not sure how many commercial jets are in service (a 2007 forum thread on airliners.net put the number just a few shy of 20k), but I imagine the cost would be astronomical. Going by that number from 2007 we're talking $200 Billion USD. How often do planes just vanish again? Even in the US (lawsuit capital of the world), if the Airline intentionally put a drunk pilot on the plane and forced the passengers on at gunpoint the settlement would not be but a small fraction of that amount.

And don't forget where these pings every is talking about came from. They are from an automated system that's supposed to upload engine performance data to Rolls Royce. But Malaysian Air couldn't even be bothered to pay for that subscription, so all they have are the "pings" of the engines connecting to their upstream service but not sending the data.

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Postby ecureilx » Thu, 27 Mar 2014 1:37 pm

zzm9980 wrote:

And don't forget where these pings every is talking about came from. They are from an automated system that's supposed to upload engine performance data to Rolls Royce. But Malaysian Air couldn't even be bothered to pay for that subscription, so all they have are the "pings" of the engines connecting to their upstream service but not sending the data.


do some look up on Rolls Royce power by the hour program. all RR engines on power by the hour include HEMS, if I recall.

nothing to do with MH being stingy I am sure

and for a simple modification for a break away FDR alone the US the government has planned a 500 million $ program just to retrofit US large planes

I recall about ballistic parachutes for small planes. a small plane with the chute crashed and passengers survived with injuries

here comes a lawyer and sues the parachute maker for liability claiming it didn't work according to the spec fully, never mind the fact minus the parachute the survivors would have died ... cost few millions for the maker of the parachute ,.. till a wise ass said maybe the passengers should have just died than bleed the parachute maker. and make the suing lawyer rich

lawyers are the primary reason why each modification on commercial planes cost a lot I believe vs non passenger carrying planes where modifications abound. lest the maker of the modification be sued, commercial plane makers are jittery to even incorporate minor changes.

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Postby BillyB » Thu, 27 Mar 2014 6:26 pm

zzm9980 wrote:
BillyB wrote:
These planes were originally designed 20ish years ago and despite technology progressing i suspect that taking aircraft out of service to retrofit technology, despite the clear benefits, is something that is met with resistance.


Cost vs benefit. How many planes just "get lost" to warrant the billions of dollars globally this retrofit would cost?


A long haul jet generates gross revenue of circa. US$300-500k per day. A fleet of 40 or so being pulled out of service is a huge loss of earnings.

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Postby x9200 » Thu, 27 Mar 2014 7:13 pm

zzm9980 wrote:The amount I saw was ~$10 Million USD per commercial jet. I'm really not

Sorry, I got lost, this $10million is for what?

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Postby zzm9980 » Fri, 28 Mar 2014 1:15 am

ecureilx wrote:
zzm9980 wrote:

And don't forget where these pings every is talking about came from. They are from an automated system that's supposed to upload engine performance data to Rolls Royce. But Malaysian Air couldn't even be bothered to pay for that subscription, so all they have are the "pings" of the engines connecting to their upstream service but not sending the data.


do some look up on Rolls Royce power by the hour program. all RR engines on power by the hour include HEMS, if I recall.

nothing to do with MH being stingy I am sure


WASHINGTON/PARIS, March 13 (Reuters) - Communications satellites picked up faint electronic pulses from Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 after it went missing on Saturday, but the signals gave no information about where the stray jet was heading and little else about its fate, two sources close to the investigation said on Thursday.

The "pings" indicated that the aircraft's maintenance troubleshooting systems were switched on and ready to communicate with satellites as needed. But no data links were opened because the companies involved had not subscribed to that level of service from the satellite operator, the sources said.


Bolded by me.

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Postby zzm9980 » Fri, 28 Mar 2014 1:25 am

x9200 wrote:
zzm9980 wrote:The amount I saw was ~$10 Million USD per commercial jet. I'm really not

Sorry, I got lost, this $10million is for what?



zzm9980 wrote:
x9200 wrote:
Costs of fitting or retrofitting can be relatively small comparing to the compensation costs ruled legally to be paid to the families.


The amount I saw was ~$10 Million USD per commercial jet.


I can't find the article that had this; I believe it was a total cost to the airlines though. See BillyB's comment above about lost revenue.

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Postby x9200 » Fri, 28 Mar 2014 7:00 am

But (retro)fitting what? A system allowing better tracking?

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Postby Strong Eagle » Fri, 28 Mar 2014 7:29 am

zzm9980 wrote:
x9200 wrote:
zzm9980 wrote:The amount I saw was ~$10 Million USD per commercial jet. I'm really not

Sorry, I got lost, this $10million is for what?



zzm9980 wrote:
x9200 wrote:
Costs of fitting or retrofitting can be relatively small comparing to the compensation costs ruled legally to be paid to the families.


The amount I saw was ~$10 Million USD per commercial jet.


I can't find the article that had this; I believe it was a total cost to the airlines though. See BillyB's comment above about lost revenue.


Thing is, airplanes always have to be taken out of service for mandatory maintenance, inspections, and other mandated procedures. It's not like they'd put the aircraft on the ground just for this, but it would become part of the overall maintenance, just as doing things like checking every bolt on every electrical connection in the electrics room is. Would not add that much time to replace equipment.

The bigger question is what the replacement should look like, how it will be monitored, who will pay for the monitoring, and how the pilot's rights of privacy will be protected when data is transmitted into the cloud. And, c'mon folks, when you can get a GPS system in a $49 phone, it's amazing that this isn't standard fare for the ACARS transmissions... but it's not.

Marine traffic is far more advanced in this respect and this is the community that the Inmarsat people service.

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Postby x9200 » Fri, 28 Mar 2014 7:39 am

The case I mentioned before that eventually lead to the disappearance of the company Mcdonald Douglas, retrofitting - $40 million, compensations and related - $80 million, as of the money of late 70s. This numbers were per case, per company (all their jets) and the problem was in a bad design of the cargo door.
Last edited by x9200 on Fri, 28 Mar 2014 8:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Strong Eagle » Fri, 28 Mar 2014 8:22 am

x9200 wrote:The case I mentioned before that eventually lead to the disappearance of the company Mcdonald Douglas, retrofitting - $40 million, compensations and related - $80 million, as of the money of late 70s. This numbers were per case, per company (all their jets) and the problem was in bad design of the cargo door.


MD was acquired by Boeing in a $13 BILLION stock swap. $80 million would not have killed this company. Bad designs, and bad bets in the military market doomed this company.


PS: I hated the DC9 and still hate the MD80 with the stinking engines 8 inches from your ears when you get stuck in the back of the plane.

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Postby x9200 » Fri, 28 Mar 2014 8:30 am

Yes, you are right, not this door only alone. They had heaps of problems like this.

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Postby x9200 » Sat, 29 Mar 2014 10:23 am

Back to the fake passports issue and how to make a deep hole deeper:

Malaysian Home Minister Datuk Seri Ahmad Zahid Hamidi told the Malay Mail Online this week that using Interpol's Stolen and Lost Travel Documents (SLTD) database might have slowed down the process of immigration checks at airport counters.

He said the country's immigration's equipment could not handle the global database of 40.2 million lost passports.

Interpol fired back on Friday, saying the problem cannot be blamed on technology or Interpol.

"Interpol's SLTD database takes just seconds to reveal whether a passport is listed, with recent tests providing results in 0.2 seconds," the international law enforcement agency said in a statement.

"The fact is that the U.S. consults this database more than 230 million times per year; the UK more than 140 million times; the UAE more than 100 million times and Singapore more than 29 million times. Not one of these countries, or indeed any INTERPOL member country, has ever stated that the response time is too slow."

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/03/28/world ... passports/

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Postby the lynx » Sat, 29 Mar 2014 12:27 pm

x9200 wrote:Back to the fake passports issue and how to make a deep hole deeper:

Malaysian Home Minister Datuk Seri Ahmad Zahid Hamidi told the Malay Mail Online this week that using Interpol's Stolen and Lost Travel Documents (SLTD) database might have slowed down the process of immigration checks at airport counters.

He said the country's immigration's equipment could not handle the global database of 40.2 million lost passports.

Interpol fired back on Friday, saying the problem cannot be blamed on technology or Interpol.

"Interpol's SLTD database takes just seconds to reveal whether a passport is listed, with recent tests providing results in 0.2 seconds," the international law enforcement agency said in a statement.

"The fact is that the U.S. consults this database more than 230 million times per year; the UK more than 140 million times; the UAE more than 100 million times and Singapore more than 29 million times. Not one of these countries, or indeed any INTERPOL member country, has ever stated that the response time is too slow."

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/03/28/world ... passports/


Zahid Hamidi (like many Malay politicians) have the notoriety of shooting from foot, without studying facts himself beforehand. These politicians have been too comfortable within the local media because they often do not face direct repercussions from their ill-thought comments in public (and the fact that the local media is censored or under direct control of the government. The fact that many of them are not well-educated and got the positions not by merit (but by birthright and popularity) makes the whole thing worse because they are not well-equipped to carry themselves well in their positions (and of course, to do their actual effing jobs).

Now that this crisis has garnered global attention, they need to be careful that Malaysians are not the only ones who are their audience and that the international media is beyond their control. The whole world is watching (and also laughing at some clowns they have in the cabinet). Any politician worth his salt would have sought clarity on the subject at hand before making a press statement.

Be careful, Zahid. Be careful.

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Postby ecureilx » Sat, 29 Mar 2014 12:32 pm

Strong Eagle wrote:
MD was acquired by Boeing in a $13 BILLION stock swap. $80 million would not have killed this company. Bad designs, and bad bets in the military market doomed this company.


PS: I hated the DC9 and still hate the MD80 with the stinking engines 8 inches from your ears when you get stuck in the back of the plane.


then again MDs products are still rolling ... C17, Apache, F 15 ... but they could
not fight Boeing's might.

re the MD 80 the newer ones have quite engines...

but I still recall the old wailers of Cebu Pacific ... with antique push / pull light switches ... and a few horrified folks when the plane rotates nearly vertical


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